If it's Biden I'm voting...

Bump, to summon EricT back...

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http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm
 
A more up to date version of the Tax Policy Center's findings: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=411750

Essentially, it comes down to neither candidate are going to fill the deficit or being able to pay for what they want to do. Raising the taxes on the rich isn't going to do much, they only make up a very small percentage of the american population. The middle class are the ones who are going to have to make this up, however dismal that may sound, and any dramatic tax cuts at this point is really going to hurt us in the future.

We need to build toward the future, something that is obviously not going to happen.

Hopefully 2012 will bring someone who will start to fix this shit.
 
How fucking disrespectful of this douches trying to crash McCain's speech... shit, the amount of arrests for violent protest at the RNC is a complete disgrace to everything the democratic party stands for. And people wonder why I've defected.
 
I think he's doing fine... he's not looking like a rockstar douche, thats for sure. He's speaking like a god damn politician.

Anyone watch the first part of the O'reilly - Obama interview? Now that was some good watchins. Can't wait for the rest of it next week.
 
I mean jesus christ, atleast the RNC attendee's waited for fucking McCain to name off the policy of "his opponent"... Not to mention atleast McCain was enough of a standup guy to offer his congratulations to Obama last thursday and insist that his campaign not announce his VP on that day as they had been trying to do.
 
Once again, how is that different than hearing constantly that Obama didn't have a father growing up?

The bullshit goes both ways, not just one.

Ploys for sympathy votes, because the average american is THAT stupid. Both are wrong in that dept. but at the same time, from a campaign standpoint, ever so right.
 
Raising the taxes on the rich isn't going to do much, they only make up a very small percentage of the american population.
Math For Blondes 101:

Random Blonde pays just shy pf 20% of her income in taxes and related bullshit. That gives the government roughly ~$10K per year from her. Merry Christmas.

According to unsubstantiated intarweb resources, Uncle Bill (for the non-Seattleites, think "software") makes in the neighborhood of $7.8B/year. If Uncle Bill were to pay the same percentage in taxes that Random Blonde does, that would net the government about $1.56B/year in taxes.

Story problem: If Random Blonde pays $10K per year in taxes and Uncle Bill pays $1.56B per year in taxes, how many Random Blondes does it take to make one Uncle Bill?

Yeah, that would be 156,000 of us. How rare are the rich? And just off the top of your head, what % of their income do they actually pay with tax shelters and etc.? Truly, it's an interesting math problem, and one that's always bugged me.
 
Well, you make 50000 a year, bill gates income is something I don't know off the top of my hand. I recall they have a special computer at the IRS just to compute his taxes. I'd estimate in the range of 50 billion or so he has on hand money, and his income per year at this point is somewhere in the 5-6 billion per year. Probably a lot less due to his recent changes.

The only fact we know is that he has his own computer at the IRS which is dedicated to paying his taxes.

SO... your question, while not posed as a serious question, cannot be answered in any factual manner.

However, based on my speculaton, i would know that in order to equal 140000-150000 of you, he would be paying, on 5-6 billion, 500-600 million dollars in taxes (give or take some change, and assuming the 10,000 is just federal on your part, which is most likely a wrong assumption). Whether he is paying that much, or even more, is unknown. The IRS knows, but the data is not public, of course.

Now my question to you is, how is obama going to make him, if he is not, pay that money?
 
Now my question to you is, how is obama going to make him, if he is not, pay that money?

Excellent question! Obama is not. Our income tax system needs a complete and total overhaul that no one politician would be able to achieve without being assasinated before being allowed to pass it through. The comment to which I was referring was the notion that taxing the rich does nothing. It takes so many of us to make one of them, that their percentage isn't really relevent.

In my extremely vocal, long-winded, and decidedly unhumble opinion, our tax system is nothing short of stupid. It's obvious that if there are people living on $20 - 30K/year, that it must be possible to do so and therefore equally obvious that, even with normal excess taken into consideration, the "rich" have more disposable income than the rest of us. So, naturally, we tax them at a rate roughly 2x what mine is (based purely on reading my tax tables one day while lacking a sleeping pill). Whining ensues, as I would whine if I were one of them, and tax shelters are created. Not just the obvious ones, but all sorts of ridiculous little tiny ones that include loopholes and magical freaky crap, causing Uncle Bill to have both a very well-funded and well-respected charity, and his very own computer at the IRS, and creating an entire industry full of jobs that, if the planet were ever hit by a sufficiently large meteor, would be completely useless. It just seems to me that it would be cheaper and we'd make more if we would slowly, and over time, come up with a plan that includes fewer extremes and more common sense.

On top of that, I'll admit that I'm not yet wrinkled and gumming my dinner, and I haven't researched my memories, but if I do remember correctly, in my lifetime we seem to keep running into recessions when the republicans are in power.

Wouldn't it be handy if we had a viable third party from which to choose at election time? Maybe Uncle Bill needs a new tax shelter....
 
Republicans =\= conservatives in reality. Republican buttfuckery doesn't go in line with actually conserving resources and acting with sound economic motives, so don't equate Republican failure with conservative failure.

Jeff
 
Annalisa fell asleep during the RNC and was woken up by McCain's speech. She told me that she needed an umbrella for all the bullshit flying.

I have to agree with Isabel. Ok the guy got tortured and it was horrible and he's a hero and that's great and all, but just how does that make him a better president? Yes, he did a very honorable thing by refusing his release and I have a lot of respect for him...as a military member. My friend got his foot blown off in the desert and had to have his leg amputated from below the knee, would he make a good president?

I really am getting tired of hearing about credentials and character; it's time to see some plans on paper or at least a powerpoint slideshow. You don't get to be a senator without having character, but to be a successful president you need brains and a finger on the pulse of America. I don't see McCain as a president for change.
 
Excellent question! Obama is not. Our income tax system needs a complete and total overhaul that no one politician would be able to achieve without being assasinated before being allowed to pass it through. The comment to which I was referring was the notion that taxing the rich does nothing. It takes so many of us to make one of them, that their percentage isn't really relevent.

In my extremely vocal, long-winded, and decidedly unhumble opinion, our tax system is nothing short of stupid. It's obvious that if there are people living on $20 - 30K/year, that it must be possible to do so and therefore equally obvious that, even with normal excess taken into consideration, the "rich" have more disposable income than the rest of us. So, naturally, we tax them at a rate roughly 2x what mine is (based purely on reading my tax tables one day while lacking a sleeping pill). Whining ensues, as I would whine if I were one of them, and tax shelters are created. Not just the obvious ones, but all sorts of ridiculous little tiny ones that include loopholes and magical freaky crap, causing Uncle Bill to have both a very well-funded and well-respected charity, and his very own computer at the IRS, and creating an entire industry full of jobs that, if the planet were ever hit by a sufficiently large meteor, would be completely useless. It just seems to me that it would be cheaper and we'd make more if we would slowly, and over time, come up with a plan that includes fewer extremes and more common sense.

On top of that, I'll admit that I'm not yet wrinkled and gumming my dinner, and I haven't researched my memories, but if I do remember correctly, in my lifetime we seem to keep running into recessions when the republicans are in power.

Wouldn't it be handy if we had a viable third party from which to choose at election time? Maybe Uncle Bill needs a new tax shelter....

A third party in favor of *actual* tax reform would be wonderful... Making cuts here and there, but still working with stuff like Ethanol subsidies is not something I call a taxing reform, nor do I deem a certain candidates plans for Social Security taxes very much reform.

The loopholes are shit. Thats definitely agreed. Personally, I feel that even the ability to write off charitable contributions is complete and total fuckery. If you're going to be charitable, do it to be charitable, not for a tax break (which I feel is the reason most wealthy do this). It's obvious both candidates don't feel that way (btw, Obama's biggest write off for the last few years? Tens of thousands of dollars into the trinity church. Little fact I don't feel gets spread around as much as it should lately with all the attacks on Palin and her religious connotations and opinions).

And we do run into recessions. Often. No matter who's in power. Mostly due to the fact that both sides of this never ending debate feel they have the right allocation of funds. They spend it like they will, and leave it for the next generation to deal with. Bush Jr. is guilt of this. Granted, he has been better than his father and everyones favorite Ronald, at controlling the debt, in the numbers at least in reflection of inflation (more so in his second term so far)...

I'm not sure of your lifetime, so I can't comment, but prior to Ronaldboy, there were decent republicans whom were working against the debt. Actually, all post WW2 presidents up until Ronald were working against the debt, aside from Ford, who gave it a very insubstantial increase. They were forced to. They had no choice. Ronald and Bush Sr. really fucked shit up in that dept. God knows what drove them to that, but they did. However, Clinton, as much as I love the man in all his awesomeness, took till the need arised for re-election, to actually deal with any debt (there are tables out there to show this, you can find that). Good election ploy.

All in all, we need to look at new retroactive ways to control this countries money, something that I am not seeing at all. A total reform of our money, essentially.
 
Yes, exactly! With things the way they are, we'd have a depression if we just tried to hit a reset button, but a total do-over is thoroughly necessary.

Though my reasons for wanting a third party is simply that it would, in my view, make them all work a little harder -- the math of trying to win by making 2 other strong, viable parties suck worse than you do is just more complicated to pull off. I find a lot of people not voting for one candidate, but rather voting against the other. That makes me about as crabby as Curious George's speachifying.