I'll have the usual

Reign in Acai said:
I think you fail to realize that these jobs require nill skill, therefore there's no room to bargain.
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But there is room for the government and/or unions to mandate a livable minimum wage. There is room in the budget. There is no excuse for treating people like shit because CEOs require more money and have therefore successfully lobbied your government to keep minimum wage FAR below the curve for the last 40 years.

GG4SdeV.jpg


Reign in Acai said:
With the unemployment rate as it is today, there's tens of thousands of people who would be more than content flipping a burger for $9 along with a nice free lunch on top of that.
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McDonalds employees do not receive a free lunch under any circumstances. Where did you get that from? On the contrary, they can and have been fired for sneaking the burgers that were meant for throwing away.

Also, that people would be content with $9 (it's not $9, by the way, it's more like $7.25) may be true for some, but it is nothing but a sign that your country is broken beyond belief. Do the math; this is NOT a livable wage. Why is it okay to employ people full-time (or, with these companies' modus operandi, slightly less than full-time) for a wage that is literally below what they can reasonably survive on?

Reign in Acai said:
These are entry level positions, geared towards teens and early twenty somethings.
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A common excuse. Yet the truth is that 88% of minimum wage employees are over the age of 20. Ask yourself why this is true -- are they all just lazy, and therefore do not deserve to live a reasonable life?

Reign in Acai said:
I guess such a response is expected from Euros who get three months off for summer break from their 30 hour work week jobs.
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Yes, it's really awful how everyone gets treated with a basic level of humanity in almost every other country on earth except your particular hellhole. It's amazing the lengths some will go to to defend those who take neverending, voluminous shits in their mouths.
 
Reign in Acai said:
I also forgot to mention that these dipshits want to unionize. Yep, that's all America needs, another large union.
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Yes. USA really does need more (reasonable) unions and it needs to wake the fuck up and realize that the vast majority of its citizens are barely above slave labor and that paying more to the low level employee rather than insane sums to the ceo/cfos is objectively better for the economy, not to mention FUCKING EVERYONE WILL GET TO LIVE A BETTER LIFE, the kind of life only Swiss/Scandinavians get to enjoy with their oppressive government that grant more personal freedoms for the average guy and that regulates the economy to the point where we have an unemployment rate of a whopping 3% and spending power that is a mere MULTIPLE of what the average american earns. Because, you know, business cant be competitive if it enables everyone to live at least a basic, dignified existence. Except for every country with a moderatly reasonable government, but you know, fuck those socialist commies right?
 
FUCKING EVERYONE WILL GET TO LIVE A BETTER LIFE
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yo this is not true because how will ceo cfo sir scrooge mcduck feel when he doesn't get his 14th swimming pool
 
Honestly, what everyone here is arguing is that cost of living is too ridiculously high. This is something that I whole heartedly agree with. Five decades ago a blue collar worker could get his knuckles greasy and earn himself a parcel of land over 30 years, now it's nigh impossible.

RMS pretty much nailed it on what I'm opposing. You give $15 to entry level non-skill labor, and allow them to unionize on top of it, the cost of living is just going to sky rocket along with it. "Oh sooooo bottom barrel workers are making $15 instead of $8 eh? Time to double up the rent for all." These greedy corporate fat cats arent going to cover the bill for these professional soda fountain depressors, the buck is simply going to be passed on to the consumer. So Antigua will no longer be able to get Jeremetrius a kid's meal for under $4, it will be $7.

Also, you can't possibly compare Switzerland to the U.S, it has the populace of the roach infested favela of Los Angeles. It's also populated by a different breed of humanity, not vermin.
 
Reign in Acai said:
Honestly, what everyone here is arguing is that cost of living is too ridiculously high.
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It's ridiculously high relative to the average income, because your country is ruled by corporations that have lobbied for lower minimum wage and systematically eradicated the power of workers' unions.

This is pretty simple: if you'd followed the curve in the last 40 or so years, instead of cost of living rising at a much higher rate, EVERYONE* would get paid more, not just the low end.

You have to realize that on some level, minimum wage dictates what everyone else gets paid. Minimum wage is the baseline, and those with higher wages get paid more relative to that.


Reign in Acai said:
RMS pretty much nailed it on what I'm opposing. You give $15 to entry level non-skill labor, and allow them to unionize on top of it, the cost of living is just going to sky rocket along with it.
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Even if this were the case, that's still not an argument against giving minimum wage workers a livable pay.

Also: you already said cost of living is "ridiculously high". What makes you think that giving your population more money to spend is going to make cost of living rise further? Do you have anything at all to back that up?




* Except possibly the 1%
 
einride said:
Even if this were the case, that's still not an argument against giving minimum wage workers a livable pay.
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Maybe you need to read it again? Price of workers go up. Price of "liveable" go up. You see? Business pay more. Business charge more.
 
Plastic Nathrakh said:
Maybe you need to read it again? Price of workers go up. Price of "liveable" go up. You see? Business pay more. Business charge more.
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Really? If you're going to claim that cost of living will rise in direct proportion to average wage, you're going to have to back that up, because I'm pretty sure every the economics of every other advanced country in the world would prove you wrong.

Also, maybe you need to read what you quoted again. I'm saying "this is the way it's gotta be" is not a valid excuse. You're still paying people so little they can't afford a decent life. There is no defense for that. This race to the bottom that's going on is a spiral that only goes further into a demoralized, downtrodden, uneducated, miserable workforce that's going to further ruin your society and economy.

Tell me, how does it help your glorious capitalist economy to have a large segment of the populace unable to afford to buy anything except the barest necessities?
 
einride said:
Really? If you're going to claim that cost of living will rise in direct proportion to average wage, you're going to have to back that up, because I'm pretty sure every the economics of every other advanced country in the world would prove you wrong.

Also, maybe you need to read what you quoted again. I'm saying "this is the way it's gotta be" is not a valid excuse. You're still paying people so little they can't afford a decent life. There is no defense for that. This race to the bottom that's going on is a spiral that only goes further into a demoralized, downtrodden, uneducated, miserable workforce that's going to further ruin your society and economy.

Tell me, how does it help your glorious capitalist economy to have a large segment of the populace unable to afford to buy anything except the barest necessities?
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Well Erik, if businesses know there is more money in circulation why wouldn't they charge more? I just moved from a relatively crappy suburban neighborhood to a rich white city and already noticing the differences in costs.

It's really silly to compare a country like Swiss/Sweden to the US because we seriously spend so much money on defense(and whether what amount is appropriate is a different story) that it in the end alters education/liveable benefits..I wish we could be irrelevant in world matters like the two aforementioned countries, but the realization is that we are not and trying to find the balance between the two is a daily occurrence.

I consider all of our problems a tribute to overpopulation/globalization/technology improving but that is just my take on it all.
 
rms said:
Well Erik, if businesses know there is more money in circulation why wouldn't they charge more?
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Sure they would, but I don't think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that there's precedence for the price of goods and services rising at the same rate as wages. The reality is that a huge portion of the American population at the moment can't really afford to purchase much of anything beyond the absolute basics necessary for survival. If these people had more money, then demand for luxury items would go up, which would pump more money into the economy, which would increase the amount of jobs, make way for more competition, and eventually by the laws of supply and demand lead to a relatively more affordable cost of living.

What actually happens here is that money that is already in the system gets out into the hands of those who are more likely to spend it. Rich people tend to sit on their money and watch it grow, poor people tend to spend it.

I'll admit I'm in some pretty deep water here since I have only a very basic understanding of economics; if you can tell me exactly why I'm wrong then please do.

rms said:
It's really silly to compare a country like Swiss/Sweden to the US because we seriously spend so much money on defense(and whether what amount is appropriate is a different story) that it in the end alters education/liveable benefits..
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This is true, too, but it's pretty much a different issue. No one is saying the government should give poor people more money here; there's more than enough currently lining the pockets of corporate McDonald's or whatever. I've seen the math done. Can't be bothered to find it now, but raising the minimum wage to $15 would make a negligible impact on McDonald's bottom line. Literally the only thing that would happen in the best of worlds is that the CEO would get a smaller bonus check or whatever. Of course, the shareholders would never allow it, so the government would need to step in and raise the legally allowed minimum wage for that to ever happen.

But government in any way dictating the laws of business is
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COMMUNISM
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I guess

rms said:
I consider all of our problems a tribute to overpopulation/globalization/technology improving but that is just my take on it all.
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No arguments there. That doesn't mean you can't take steps to improve the situation, though – whatever path you're on currently is clearly leading nowhere good.
 
einride said:
Sure they would, but I don't think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that there's precedence for the price of goods and services rising at the same rate as wages. The reality is that a huge portion of the American population at the moment can't really afford to purchase much of anything beyond the absolute basics necessary for survival. If these people had more money, then demand for luxury items would go up, which would pump more money into the economy, which would increase the amount of jobs, make way for more competition, and eventually by the laws of supply and demand lead to a relatively more affordable cost of living.
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There probably is a precedent now, but if our minimum wage jumps from 7 and change to 10+$ everything is going to slowly increase(i'm not an economist so can't say how long) until 10+$ min wage is exactly the same as 7 and change.

Totally agree that our poverty/poor level but in reality I think if people's wages increased from 30k to a 45-50k luxury items wouldn't really exist..they'd be buying better groceries/gas/every day items while living a life of credit(much like the middle class boom from WW2) which most people seem to be fine with, but personally not me. In the end, the more peopl working the more money being made for the people who invest/started companies..I think that is really just how the system works.

I also totally think 'competition' is a farce, large corporations buy other large corporations and every gas station has the same price--so really what is competition anymore? People living closer to a Target than a Walmart? Or a Sunoco and not a Valero?

What actually happens here is that money that is already in the system gets out into the hands of those who are more likely to spend it. Rich people tend to sit on their money and watch it grow, poor people tend to spend it.
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Definitely. Rich people legally gamble, I mean the stock market or buy property and resell at a higher cost..there is always going to be a rich man and a poor man



This is true, too, but it's pretty much a different issue. No one is saying the government should give poor people more money here; there's more than enough currently lining the pockets of corporate McDonald's or whatever. I've seen the math done. Can't be bothered to find it now, but raising the minimum wage to $15 would make a negligible impact on McDonald's bottom line. Literally the only thing that would happen in the best of worlds is that the CEO would get a smaller bonus check or whatever. Of course, the shareholders would never allow it, so the government would need to step in and raise the legally allowed minimum wage for that to ever happen.
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Well if you think raising the minimum wage is going to fix a nation's poverty problem, I will have to say you're wrong. Education is a huge social gap, and if we didn't spend 20% of our GDP on Defense/Homeland Security/Taking care of Veteran's from stupid wars then that money could go to education--public transportation and other things inner city folks need to help get them out of a shithole life.


No arguments there. That doesn't mean you can't take steps to improve the situation, though – whatever path you're on currently is clearly leading nowhere good.
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Well every country has these problems, if you tell me Sweden doesn't have an inner city problem/poverty/lower class issues then I gotta say you're crazy
 
I can seriously not fucking believe how disturbed the situation and population and mindset of the united states of america is. If I was in a band there, I would make hella political songs.

/Hell Mike
 
einride said:
you insufferable idiot
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Ah, I see. My mistake. That made me laugh though.

I don't know how accurate this is as a "price of living" arrangement, but 8,600 kr is crazy high for a one bedroom. I've even seen 4,000 which is still high for OUR minimum take-home. Compare that to our maybe 400 - 500 USD a month average in Dallas for a cheap joint. You get the drill.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Sweden&city=Stockholm

What I'm honestly fucking talking about, as you so eloquently requested, is a comparison to price of living versus minimum pay between the US and Sweden since you like to weigh in on how much we suck so often. If your "pay minima" (which is kind of vague from what I'm seeing) keeps you running smoothly even with your asinine cost of living, good, go for it. But don't say there's no correlation as I'm sure your lower skilled jobs pay more so that things are more "liveable" with those prices.

By the way, your country has very skilled workers even on the low end and a like-minded collectivism that we don't have here. There's no comparing them. Bottom line: Your lower skilled jobs may pay more, but the people pay higher costs. It seems like a wash to me.
 
I work for a company that made $39 Billion (with a "B") in profit last year. Profit=after taxes, bills, wages, ridiculous executive bonuses, paying lobbyists, paying for the executive's hookers....$39 Billion!

And I'm sure Mr. CEO (I make the rules, but don't have to follow them) would love to pay me and my brethren $7.25 and hour. Seriously, how much is enough profit for these greedy capitalist fucks? That is why we are a union. Together we power! Strength Through Unity! Do not believe the Republican anti-union hype. Why do you think companies do not want their employees to unionize? Because they fear the power they will wield. I'd rather have an equal say for my future wage than for it to be determined by some greedy bean counter. I worked at Lowe's for 7 years. Even mentioning the word union would land you in a discipline write up.

Unions are good for the regular joe American. Dont believe the Mitt Romneys, Rush's, or Hannity's.
 
Last Sunday I stopped by Mickey D's for some provender.

Exchange went as follows...

Juvenile Pimply Faced Youth- "Welcome to McDonald's bleh blah blarg"
RIA- "Can I get a double McChicken?"
JPFY- "We don't offer double McChickens."
RIA- "You're not able to throw an extra patty onto a standard McChicken?"
JPFY- "One moment."

:Minutes elapse while he consults with his manager over this perplexing issue:

JPFY- "Ok sir, will that complete your order?"

I end up paying first douche, and proceed to the second window. Douche number two passes me the bag, while not even greeting me, nor fn looking at my direction. No thank you, please come again, not even a nod that I fn exist.I'm, a fuggin phantom.


I drive a few blocks, and turn as red as a riped tomato at the sight of my "double McChicken" being a standard McChicken with the second patty being thrown in an additional box. So basically I had to build my own fn sammich. These vunts want $15 an hour? GTFOoRC!
 
surely you don't mean to say that you were disappointed with the food and service

at

mcdonald's?
 
haha

I typically gauge a Chinese establishment by their General Tso Chicken or Shredded Beef Szechuan. I also typically gauge a sub shop by their Steak n' Cheese. At a restaurant, when in doubt, I order the Sirloin Steak Tips.
 
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