Iron Maiden's gonna get ya!

[JayKeeley]

Flamey Flamey.

Just my opinions here...

OVERALL, there is no way that Maiden 'post' 7th Son is better than 'pre', or even equal. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the band became utter shite, I'm just saying that something got lost in the equation (and it wasn't just Bruce and Smithy boy leaving).

Mother Russia? Are you serious. It's hard trying to keep a straight face when that song comes on. Also, next to Virtual XI, Fear of the Dark is probably the worst Maiden album ever (Bruce has never sounded so bad with his tired voice and screams).

I like X Factor - it is very dark for Maiden. And I love Blaze - just when he's not singing over Harris bass lines. Silicon Messiah proves that alone.

If Bruce wrote crap for his later Maiden days, it was because he was uninspired. So he bailed out. It was the right move. Why? Because works of art like Chemical Wedding would not have been bestowed upon us. Chemical Wedding DESTROYS anything Maiden did after 7th Son, and indeed, sits in my top ten list of all time.

Why would Smith lose credibility when he could see the ship was sinking? Him leaving Maiden doesn't magically transform him into a shit musician - if anything, he always provided the harmonized magic and happened to write some of my fave Maiden tunes.

Here are songs that Smith wrote or co-wrote:

The Prisoner
Gangland
22 Acacia Avenue
Flight of Icarus
Die with your Boots on
Sun and Steel
2 minutes to midnight (Harris nowhere in sight by the way)
Back in the Village (the riff to destroy all riffs)
Wasted Years
Sea of Madness
Stranger in a Strange Land
Moonchild
Can I Play With Madness
The Evil That Men Do

...and then, No Prayer came along and everything went a little pear shaped. Mmm, wonder why? There's a connection there. Can Gers write anything remotely as good as Stranger in a Strange Land, Flight of Icarus, or 2 Minutes? I think NOT!

Look, Gers can do whatever he wants since he seems to have his nose planted firmly between Harris's butt pillows. He's on to a good thing financially and obviously isn't honest enough to step down now that Smith is back in the unit.

But it will be an ATROCITY if Gers gets to contribute more to the writing than Smith based on some of the examples listed above. Anyone disagree with that?

 

[Papa Josh]

First off, The Chemical Wedding is one of the MOST OVERRATED cds to come out in the last ten years... Aside from The Tower, most of that album just bores me to tears. Accident Of Birth is waaaay better.

Can I Play With Madness?? Utter radio bullshit, I hate that fucking song, one of their weakest moments.... the others you list are good though. However, Harris still writes the best of them. I think once they ALL are writing that is when we will see the true magic of Maiden.

And to Erik, how in the HELL do Darkthrone and Bathory benefit from shitty production, or anyone else for that matter?

I guess it's a true kvlt viking warrior thing.... but that's bullshit, because Enslaved kill them all and their production is quite good.

 

[JayKeeley]

*24 commercial break*....!!

Yep Can I play with Madness is a bit poppy - but I think had it not been overplayed, we might all think otherwise?

No dispute that Harris is god. All I want is fair songwriting credit when the time is due. If Harris chooses to write most of the stuff, then no problem. But if others are going to have a go, I *wish* Smith and Dickinson get their 2 cents in.

Chemical Wedding is stunning man!

 

[Papa Josh]

You both are sooo full of yourselves.

It's all opinion, but you two state your opinions as if they are fact.

The band I had at the age of 11 sounds better than the shit found on Bathory's "The Return."

And the production on both Hordane's Land and Vikingligr Veldi are infinitely better than that of most "classic" Darkthrone cds. And to be honest, yes I would like the earlier Darkrthrone albums much more if they had production similar to Plaguewielder or Ravishing Grimness. Their latest, "Hate Them" is a step backwards in my OPINION.

Guess that was an attempt to make the "troo kvlt" fans happy...

I don't know which Chemical Wedding album you guys have, but it must not be the same one I have. It is good, but by no means "one of the best of all time..."

 

[JayKeeley]

You both are sooo full of yourselves.

It's all opinion, but you two state your opinions as if they are fact.

I'm not stating facts, I'm stating my opinion, hence the "Just stating my opinions here" comment at the beginning. (I can't be arsed to write 'IMO' at the end of every sentence).

It is good, but by no means "one of the best of all time..."

Well, I think it is. IMO.

Are you not even curious to wonder what the output would be if Roy Z stepped in to produce a Maiden album? And Gers stepped away? I actually think they could equal something as timeless as Powerslave.

 

[Papa Josh]

Are you not even curious to wonder what the output would be if Roy Z stepped in to produce a Maiden album? And Gers stepped away? I actually think they could equal something as timeless as Powerslave.

By the way, I hope you both know I am just fucking with you and playing devil's advocate. It gives me a big stiffy.

But no, I don't want Roy Z anywhere near a Maiden release. He'd make them sound like Halford or Dickinson's solo output, guitars way too crunchy and processed sounding. Harris would have to kick his ass out of the studio repeatedly!!

Harris, Martin Birch period.

Timeless.

 

[JayKeeley]

Papa Josh - you get a stiffy from anything.

Here's a question for anyone: which Maiden album do you think has the best production then?

I would say it's Powerslave. So clean. If you listen to Powerslave today, it hasn't dated one iota. It sounhds like a new release. I know it leans a little on the treble end, but I think it suits the music.

Maiden need to capture that element again. The thing about Roy Z is that he does bring forth the crunch element - but producers also have a lot of say in the dynamics of the song. They don't just twiddle knobs as such. I think if you brought in someone like Roy Z to the Maiden production team, then it might add a spark.

I don't know what happened with the production standards on NPftD, but it's never been the same since!

 

[Ayeka]

Martin Birch, man, that's the key he was the best producer that ever lived and the world is a worse place without him

But no, I don't want Roy Z anywhere near a Maiden release. He'd make them sound like Halford or Dickinson's solo output, guitars way too crunchy and processed sounding.

The only Roy Z-produced albums I've heard have been Halford's, and I really wouldn't want Maiden sounding like that! It works for Halford but wouldn't for Maiden!
Gawd, I hate it when you guys bang on about CW and AoB when all I've got is Tattooed Millionaire

I must say - Darkthrone really doesn't benefit from 'kvlt' production when you can't hear the drums. And I've always thought that Bathory would sound that much heavier if it had some proper production. Not really very hardcore when everything's swimming in the mix. But I like Poison so who am I to judge?

 

[JayKeeley]

The X Factor and BNW are on my top 5 Maiden albums, X Factor has got some brilliant songs and a mood like none other.

Can you elaborate on why you like the X Factor? I mean, the sound and production is horrific, made worse only by Blaze Baileys shitty vocals. I was listening to the album on the way in, just because of what was said in this thread, and I can safely say that I still think it's 'weak'.

Parts of it sound like a garage band demo. How Steve Harris let those vocals pass is beyond me - Blaze just does not have the range (at either low or high register).

But sincerely, I'm curious as to why you would have it in your top 5 Maiden albums.

 

[Papa Josh]

Most people are aware that Harris did not want to replace Bruce w/ a clone, like Priest did w/ Ripper (albeit a very good clone!). Instead, he went for someone with more of a Paul Di'Anno sound, which Bailey can definitely do the first two albums very well.

He just doesn't have the range for Dickinson's stuff. Not to mention he had to sing in the keys that HArris was writing in. If they had downtuned, like the Blaze solo albums were, it probably would've came out better.

Songwise though, X Factor is easily their best release since 7th Son. Oops, opinion....

And to phyre, Gehenna's cover of Transylvanian Hunger is excellent and it has great production. Emperor's cover of Cromlech, the same... so you can't tell me that a better production would take away from their "atmosphere." Atmosphere is not just having hissing treble and no audible bass drums...

 

[JayKeeley]

He just doesn't have the range for Dickinson's stuff. Not to mention he had to sing in the keys that HArris was writing in. If they had downtuned, like the Blaze solo albums were, it probably would've came out better.

Amazing that Steve never noticed in all those months of production! What the hell was he thinking? I know he was going through a divorce...

Songwise though, X Factor is easily their best release since 7th Son. Oops, opinion....

Do you think the XF songs are better than those on BNW?

 

[Papa Josh]

Have you heard the original version of Cromlech? That's from Darkthrone's first album, before they decided to be a fist in the face of production-whiners everywhere. Thus, the original has a "good" production already. And since that is technical/melodic death metal, the production benefits it.


No, which is why 99% of today's "raw black metal" bands totally suck. They emulate the raw production values of greater bands without fully understanding why. 99% of the time, that comes out as pancake. As we'd say in Sweden.

Yes, I've heard the original, I'm from the old school, but I prefer Emperor's. Don't get me wrong, I love all of my Darkthrone albums. I have them all except for Soulside Journey (just haven't gotten around to rebuying it) and Goatlord (which I don't really need). But I really liked Plaguewielder, especially the use of color.

I enjoyed the tribute cd to them... dammit I'm starting a Darkthrone thread.

And agreed in regards to your last comments. Occassionally one will grab me, like Keep Of Kallessin.

 

[Papa Josh]

Do you think the XF songs are better than those on BNW?

Some are and some aren't. For instance, "The Sign Of The Cross" is a fucking classic, while "The Fallen Angel" isn't. Or "The tHin Line Between Love and Hate" is whereas " Lord Of The Flies" sucks donkey ass and balls.

 

[JayKeeley]

Some are and some aren't. For instance, "The Sign Of The Cross" is a fucking classic, while "The Fallen Angel" isn't.

I'm so glad they kept Sign of the Cross for their live sets. Bruce sings it so well. And it's a pretty complex song for Maiden standards. I quite like The Fallen Angel, heh.

Or "The tHin Line Between Love and Hate" is whereas " Lord Of The Flies" sucks donkey ass and balls.

Both of them make me want to drill rusty nails into my ears. Or rather Harris's ears.

 

[Papa Josh]

Both of them make me want to drill rusty nails into my ears. Or rather Harris's ears.

You're crazy! Thin Line.. is beautifully written by Murray and Harris, and Bruce's vocal stretches at the end our awesome!

 

[JayKeeley]

The 'bouncy vocal' verses in "Thin Line" are just godawful. When I first heard that song, I could barely make a connection to Maiden.

Dave Murray - bless him, but his song writing ability should have ended with Charlotte the Harlott! But I have a feeling I'll be proven wrong by you guys...:Spin:

 

[Ayeka]

The Prophecy is reason enough for Dave to keep writing songs

Can you elaborate on why you like the X Factor? I mean, the sound and production is horrific, made worse only by Blaze Baileys shitty vocals. I was listening to the album on the way in, just because of what was said in this thread, and I can safely say that I still think it's 'weak'.

Well, for starters I never had a problem with the production. It's not so radically different from what came before, and if you're casually listening like you should then you don't notice it.
Blaze's voice is fine, imo. It just comes down to the opinion think - I like his voice, I think it sounds fine, and you don't ^_^
The songs vary in quality, same with any other Maiden album. Lord Of The Flies and 2AM aren't amazing, but they've got bits to them here and there that justify a listen. The intro for the former and the sense of despair in the latter. Hell, that bit in The Unbeliever where everything stops and then the drums & bass kick it - that justifies the entire song to me! the rest are just classic ass-kicking Maiden songs with added atmosphere to boot.
The atmosphere is definately one of the key points of the album, which is why I labour the point so much. It's what makes it stand out from every single other Maiden album. It ties in brilliantly with the cover and layout of the booklet even - it's special, man!

Sure, but heaviness ain't the point. The point is atmosphere. The point is knowing that the kind of production Bathory had was the best they could do, recording in a garage with 60's equipment and a 10-track mixer etc...

Guess I don't see eye to eye here. I think the atmosphere in a song is caused by the song itself, not by knowing the guy recorded it in a garage. You do have a point, but I don't think a shitty mix where the intruments are 'swimming' with each other does anything for atmosphere.

Noone would fucking care about Bathory's two first albums if they were released today with Abyss productions by an unknown band. The music is pretty fucking generic, although catchy. Atmosphere!

True, but I'm sure they would have cared if they were released in '83/'84 with Abyss production. They would have kicked so much more arse!

 

[Papa Josh]

Gotta agree with Ayeka on this one.

The X Factor oozes atmosphere, so very dark. And I know precisely what he's saying in regards to "bits and parts" because they're everywhere.

I've gotten past Blaze's vocals, if only because it seemed to me to be a shot back to Di'Anno vocally, while the music went back to 7th Son in a sense.

"Blood On The World's Hands" is a wicked Maiden track. And "2 AM" is one of my faves, if only because I imagine what it would sound like with Dickinson. Keep in mind, just like he energized all of the songs from the 1st two albums, he could very well do with X Factor. "Sign of The cross" is a great example.

Imagine him doing "The unbeliever"!!

 

[Ayeka]

Maybe for the upcoming tour, eh? They owe us a few surprises this time round ^_^

 

[JayKeeley]

I don't dispute that X Factor has some good songs one it, but don't you think it's weird that you have to turn the volume up and up and up until you can hear the music?

Put on Seventh Son, or whatever, and then listen to X Factor at the same volume. You can barely hear it.

Also, just for arguments sake, I don't think that Bruce can always improve a song for the most part. For example, I think Paul D'ianno's version of Wrathchild is SO much better than the Bruce version on Ed Hunter, since it keeps that raw old punk vibe.

Also, I don't think Bruce would improve Man on the Edge. Blaze sings it just fine IMO.

What do you think?