Is Being Polished Being A Sell-Out?

[MetalManCPA]

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I was thinking tonight about Metallica and Dimmu Borgir. I know people think Metallica sold-out, and although I am not familiar with the entire history of Dimmu Borgir, from all the "hatred" towards them in this forum, it seems many think they sold out too.

Now to me, polished has so much to do with production.

With that being said, I was listening to some of their stuff tonight in the car. I grew up with Metallica, so I know how they've changed. I listened to Battery, then Fuel, then Wherever I May Roam. Obviously, James had a major vocal change in the album Black. A much richer sound. Polished. Then, they are dubbed a sell-out. No with Load, Re-Load, and that symphony album, I personally just don't like the direction they are headed - just my opinion.

Now I am relatively new to Dimmu Borgir, but I honestly think their new album is quite amazing. And seeing them live really solidified my positive attitude towards their music - and it is very polished for this "genre" of music - again, in my opinion.

So - is a better production by a band, relative to their earlier stuff, the defining moment in them being dubbed a "sell-out"? Does this polish make them a "sell-out"? Are people into the "real" metal scene too hung up on the raw power of metal? Meaning, that when a band has that raw sound, and then progresses to a fuller, richer, better produced album, there is a falling out?

Just a curious rambling question before I hit the sack. I'm always tired after playing ice hockey

 

[Pieguy]

I disagree. Many metal albums(particularly 80's ones) would sound alot better with good production. It's only when a band throws away all musical value, and starts relying completely on production that they're sellouts(ie. Metallica - The Black Album).

 

[ghobhlin]

No.

Selling out has nothing to do with whether people like them or not. Having a good producer or having the opportunity to make your album sound better is not indicative of bein a sellout. Metallica, I can reasonably assume are sellouts, Dimmu Borgir, I really dont know.

In Metallica's case, I find it too coincidental that the time they made a drastic leap in musical direction just after they sued their label to get a higher percentage of royalties. To me that says they changed their style to make more money. To me that is selling out.

 

[requiem]

About Dimmu Borgir, sure they have a strong image which they flog to the nth degree, but is their music any softer or easier to consume?

No.

Enthrone Darkness Triumphant was polished as hell and very commercial, Spiritual Black Dimensions was not as well produced yet more extreme, and the new one is much more heavy, extreme at times, and very well produced.

If anything I think they're getting more extreme. Which really doens't follow logically if they're trying to break into the mainstream.....

My opinion of course.

 

[Misanthrope]

Dimmu has gone from a band i considered crap to a band i consider great, it has grew up alot but for the tr00 black metal fans nothing beats a 100 bucks production recording everything at the forest getting some worst than tape cuality. I dislike the black Pa Pa ( as in pa pa pa pa pa, i hate when they do that super slow blast ) but a lot of black metal bands have taken a nice direction but they are just flamed for the wrong reasons. The only black metal band that i never liked and i like even less each time and therefore i consider the bashing justifiable its cradle of filth.


But Metallica its a different thing, all their first stuff its overrated, i too grew out with metallica ( not in real time like metalmancpa but i got to listen and enjoy all records ) but i kept growing and i realized they were never any good, but i specially think they werent any good since they almost won that grammy crap. Since all the controversy about metallica being too long to play on the radio, bullshit. the black album was just a bob rock version of metallica that would appeal a wider audience, he did the same think todays producers do for bands like papa roach or linkin park, just add 10 years of cult following and you have 20 years of justifications for their crap.

 

[dune_666]

Originally posted by Pieguy
I disagree. Many metal albums(particularly 80's ones) would sound alot better with good production. It's only when a band throws away all musical value, and starts relying completely on production that they're sellouts(ie. Metallica - The Black Album).

Speaking of which, has anyone heard Testament's Fist Strike Still Deadly? They actually re-recorded (not just remixed and remastered) the best songs of their first two albums. Its fucking amazing, perhaps the best thrash I've ever heard. The first thing I noticed was "man, The Haunted ripped these guys off." Good production makes all the difference.

 

[Sóti]

yeah first strike still deadlu, that guys tone is fuckin heavy

 

[Slayed Necros]

The same thing can be said about Opeth - Blackwater Park..I have spoken to many Opeth fans that hate the album..I believe it is more polished and is their greatest work yet..

 

[mblatcher]

IMO a sellout is a band that plays what the masses want to hear, not what the band themselves want to play. I don't feel it has anything to do with production.

 

[YaYo]

I think that there are certain emotions and feelings you can convey with not so polished production that simply isnt achieved with great quality production.

I mean is it really possible to get the laid back sound of Orchid with the production of Blackwater Park? The answer is yes but most bands dont achieve it.

My point is that sometimes bands get better production which has a negative affect on their overall sound, they end up sounding just like everyone else... (and it works the other way too, a lot of the time a bands sound improves with better production).

So in these cases you have to think about motives for being better produced. Just something to think about anyway.

 

[Obyeybyeogone]

No.

 

[Lutz]

Nope.

 

[lumen]

Just to be different here...

Yes, actually, sometimes polished does = selling out, not in terms of well-executed performance or well-developed songwriting, but in terms of production. Like when you go back in and record over your drummer's parts because he wasn't quite perfect enough. Or you record every single drum hit individually, and maybe not even on real drums but by hitting a trigger that sets off a "real" drum sound that is perfectly quantized. Or when you run your vocals through a computer program that perfects the slightest deviance from perfect pitch.

For me music has a really strong emotional component, something that cannot be reproduced when you chop songs into little manufactured bits and pieces.

 

[Obyeybyeogone]

If you define polished as you said it Laura, than I strongly agree with you, but I don't think tr000 production is necesarilly necesarry.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

i think that better production is better. i mean i most of the time dont want to sit there and listen to static because its troooooo. i like good production, it makes it more barable to listen to. look at morningrise and then blackwater park. blackwater park is a much better album (production wise, not sound wise). i mean the drums in morningrise are just plain dull sounding and sometimes takes away from the atmosphere of it. if morningrise had the production of BWP, i think it would be really interesting .

 

[Obyeybyeogone]

Wow! That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

But it's also possible the delicate balances changing would cause the Morningrise atmosphere to change for the worse... possibly.

 

[lumen]

I don't think that a recording needs to be an exact representation of a band's live sound - in many cases that's not at all what it's about. And poor production can severely mar a song. But I do think a recording needs to be true (or "tr000") in the sense that it captures the essence of what the music is about, and examining and perfecting each individual beat or note can quickly drain a song of its integrity.

To return to Metalmancpa's examples - it's not James' matured vocal technique that's earned the band the sell out label (and live he still sings like shit). For bands like this, being polished isn't about offering the best songs with good production that allows you to hear all the nuances and appreciate the talent that went into them. It's become more like - how can we present our songs in the glossiest aural package, mask the fact that we're running out of original ideas, and make the music palatable to as many people as possible?

When polished equates with well-executed performance and well-written songs presented with production that does the music justice, then it deserves nothing but respect. But when polished means sterilely creating a marketable product in a nice shiny package, that sounds like sell out to me.

But it depends to on your view of music, or art in general. When you're looking at making music from a business perspective, offering the most attractive product is probably exactly what you're after, and abstract concepts like essence and musical integrity probably sound like self-indulgent nonsense.

(I think I'm overtired and seriously starting to babble. Many apologies.)

 

[requiem]

Originally posted by llamaura
Or you record every single drum hit individually, and maybe not even on real drums but by hitting a trigger that sets off a "real" drum sound that is perfectly quantized

But does that mean the band has 'sold out'? Doesn't it just mean that they're looking for a great drum sound? I think the musician's personal satisfaction in their sound shouldn't immediately be misinterpreted as selling out.

Although in some cases you might be right...