Is psychology a fake science?

[King Chaos]

Ok, so my friends and I argued over psychology, and the methods used in psychiatry, and I think this isn't a real science. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't ever give definate answers, and is too easilly evaluated. Many people have proven freud to be a bullshitter and although you could say "people once thought the earth was flat" I'd still say, due to the relative youngness of studies of the mind, it is not a genuine science yet.

Qs:
Do you think a person could watch your behaviour and tell you why you are the way you are through a psychological model? I'm asking, would you be able to accept the way your personality is charted for a conclusion.

Do you think psychology is a science?

How would you personally find therapy in seeing a psychiatrist?

How would you feel if a psychiatrist told you you acted a certain way for a reason you thought was totally invalid, but he insisted it was that reason?

 

[La Rocque]

I remember this from some college course -
If 99 people are treated by a psychiatrist
1/3 will get better, 1/3 will stay the same, 1/3 will get worse
If the same 99 are not given any treatments
1/3 will get better, 1/3 will stay the same, 1/3 will get worse

Over the years, I've sought these people out because of my bouts with depression and
all they wanted to do was give me drugs.
I think it's a bunch of bullshit but if it works for you, that's all that is important -

 

[S4R]

let's just ignore over a century of rigorous scientific study which shows unequivocally that certain medications and therapies relieve symptoms of mental illness and distress, and certain genetic and environmental factors can be given direct causality. please, go on.

 

[Thanatos]

Ok, so my friends and I argued over psychology, and the methods used in psychiatry, and I think this isn't a real science. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't ever give definate answers, and is too easilly evaluated. Many people have proven freud to be a bullshitter and although you could say "people once thought the earth was flat" I'd still say, due to the relative youngness of studies of the mind, it is not a genuine science yet.

Psychology and Psychiatry are not the same, perhaps you'd change your opinion after learning that.

Many people have proven freud to be a bullshitter

Many people (not a very reliable source ) have proven many people to be bullshitters, but that doesn't mean they are and besides Freud is the father of Psychiatry, not Psychology, which is a science many consider already outdated and in the process of being "replaced" by psychology, which has a different approach, rather than focussing on trying to find out the causes of a certain behaviour/phobia/etc. it encourages the patient to determine and find his "cure", much better in my opinion.

I do think psychology is a science, of course it can't be an exact science such as math or physics, as the human mind is much too complex and varies from subject to subject.

I don't think that a discipline has to be around for a certain time in order to be considered a science.s

 

[Misanthrope]

Psychology its a complete scam in my eyes, but psychiatry actually does a good job of defining mental illness. You should check out what some psychiatrist and profilers had to say about serial killers and how dead on they can be.

Now can they cure anyone? I dont think ive heard about studies that are conclusive enough to think so. Doesnt means their effords are futile however: given the nature of the field understanding is needed before we can threat the illness in this case.

 

[King Chaos]

Psychology and Psychiatry are not the same, perhaps you'd change your opinion after learning that.

I'm fully aware of this. Explain to me why knowing the difference would change my mind about my views on this as a science.
Also I didn't feel it neccesary to find links of people calling freud a bullshitter, because it's fact that hardly anyone in the profession use his models anymore.

and certain genetic and environmental factors can be given direct causality.

Yes, in some cases, and in some cases it becomes a clear medical element. Still, there are some symptoms that I'm sure different psychologists would observe and give an opposing thesis for the behaviour. I remember vaguely from my couple of weeks of studying psychology p alrighty, im not versed in this, but fuck off yeah?) That every hypothesis and conclusion we studied was directly contradicted by another psychologist who we inturn had to study. If I murdered animals, and bathed in their blood, I'm sure psychologists could observe me and each come up with a different reason why I'm like that, and no doubt some would neglect their peers psychological readings. The point? However smart they make themselves sound with all there mind mapping modeling shite, they are rarely specific, and to be specific you'd probably have to write a book about the answer, covering all the bases in-so-far-as not leaving holes for evaluation in the study and all the causes.

If 99 people are treated by a psychiatrist
1/3 will get better, 1/3 will stay the same, 1/3 will get worse
If the same 99 are not given any treatments
1/3 will get better, 1/3 will stay the same, 1/3 will get worse

It's really quite funny.

Damn you people, answer the questions!

 

[Misanthrope]

let's just ignore over a century of rigorous scientific study which shows unequivocally that certain medications and therapies relieve symptoms of mental illness and distress, and certain genetic and environmental factors can be given direct causality. please, go on.

Like i said im not arguing anything at all with psychiatry but can you show me conclusive experiments using the scientific method that prove the validity of the psychology methods? When were they done, how where they done, under what circunstances, how many times have they been reproduced with identical results, whenever or not they have been formaly recognized as scientific fact and not just theory, etc. ?

 

[King Chaos]

scientific fact and not just theory

I think that sums it up to an extent. Although I grant that other sciences have their theories, Psychology is based almost wholy on them, and that begs my scepticism.

[Offtopic] all of a sudden a really thick spray has appeared outside. It's a really weird precipitation (some might say its name is rain )... but fucking hell, it's so thin It's hard to describe, almost like every inch of the space outside is taking up by rain particles. 'Tis quite creepy.

 

[Taliesin]

Err... wtf?

Of course psychology is a science, what do you think psychologists study for during 5 or 6 years at the university?
Now Im not saying Im an expert, but my dad's a psychologist, I did my civil service in a mental facility and Ive been in psychologic treatment over the last few months, so I dare say I have some insights.
I dont know of any distinctions between psychology and psychiatry as fields of science. A psychologist is someone who studied psychology, and a psychiatrist is a doctor who specialised on psychology.
The 1/3 gets better, 1/3 remains the same and 1/3 gets worse stuff is complete bullshit.
The facility where I worked was treating diseases called "Behaviour disorders" and there were two types of patients: The ones who wanted help and the ones who didnt. The ones who didnt want any help hardly ever get better, while the ones who did always made big progress. Of course sometimes they came back when old ways of behaviour came back and they found themselves unable to apply what they learned.
There are different types of diseases of course, neurologic deffects, disorders caused by brain damage or clinic depression, schizophrenia and so on, which are more difficult to treat. Which brings us to "drugs"
The patient, drugged by a psychologist most be as old as the medication in treatment itself. Hello, this is the 21century People dont get drugged and left to themselves, the medication used has undergone severe testing and its efficiency is documented. This isnt "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest"

How would you feel if a psychiatrist told you you acted a certain way for a reason you thought was totally invalid, but he insisted it was that reason?

That's bullshit, no psychologist does that. Every psychologist (with the few bad exceptions of course) knows that you have the better insight in your life, so if you disagree, he wont insist on the opposite, I mean what's the point? In the worst case the patient would get mad and fuck off. Of course sometimes the answer is quite obvious so the psychologist will suggest to reconsider an opinion or explanation or something. The point is, if you want the patient to get better, you cant hammer the correct answers into him, he'll have to see them himself

 

[King Chaos]

Err... wtf?

Of course psychology is a science, what do you think psychologists study for during 5 or 6 years at the university?
Now Im not saying Im an expert, but my dad's a psychologist, I did my civil service in a mental facility and Ive been in psychologic treatment over the last few months, so I dare say I have some insights.
I dont know of any distinctions between psychology and psychiatry as fields of science. A psychologist is someone who studied psychology, and a psychiatrist is a doctor who specialised on psychology.
The 1/3 gets better, 1/3 remains the same and 1/3 gets worse stuff is complete bullshit.
The facility where I worked was treating diseases called "Behaviour disorders" and there were two types of patients: The ones who wanted help and the ones who didnt. The ones who didnt want any help hardly ever get better, while the ones who did always made big progress. Of course sometimes they came back when old ways of behaviour came back and they found themselves unable to apply what they learned.
There are different types of diseases of course, neurologic deffects, disorders caused by brain damage or clinic depression, schizophrenia and so on, which are more difficult to treat. Which brings us to "drugs"
The patient, drugged by a psychologist most be as old as the medication in treatment itself. Hello, this is the 21century People dont get drugged and left to themselves, the medication used has undergone severe testing and its efficiency is documented. This isnt "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest"

Well if we talk about curing disorders through medication, then it's biology (a real science). If it's through different means of excercise and encouragement, it's therapy. It's not a science because of this.

That's bullshit, no psychologist does that. Every psychologist (with the few bad exceptions of course) knows that you have the better insight in your life, so if you disagree, he wont insist on the opposite, I mean what's the point? In the worst case the patient would get mad and fuck off. Of course sometimes the answer is quite obvious so the psychologist will suggest to reconsider an opinion or explanation or something. The point is, if you want the patient to get better, you cant hammer the correct answers into him, he'll have to see them himself

Well then pretend he did do that. Or excuse my wording and imagine he says, "The root of your problems is obvious. You hate black people." you don't though, and he's assesed you in this way. How do you feel about the practice as a result?

 

[Taliesin]

Sorry, but you have no idea what psychology is or how psychologists work. This is pointless

 

[rahvin]

Ok, so my friends and I argued over psychology, and the methods used in psychiatry, and I think this isn't a real science.

welcome to the exciting world of scientology!

 

[Taliesin]

Well then pretend he did do that. Or excuse my wording and imagine he says, "The root of your problems is obvious. You hate black people." you don't though, and he's assesed you in this way. How do you feel about the practice as a result?

So once Im in therapy, the whole concept of being an adult who's entitled to his own opinions and all isnt working anymore or what? Id tell him to fuck off, that's what Id do.
It's simple, either he's wrong, in which case you're right to leave, or he's right and you're not ready to see it yet, in which case therapy wont make much sense. It's like I said, you have to want to get better in order to get better

 

[Siren]

I couldn't read further than the 5th post.

KC sounds like a bad replica of Tom Cruise. Please, nightmare, go away.

 

[Siren]

Oh, and i'm pretty sure that around when physics was young, there were some ignorant people to say "but it's not a real science, it has so little facts!"



Siren (but it moves..)

 

[Siren]

I'll continue my well-deserved triple posting (rahv feel free to merge anytime), by quoting this:

Also I didn't feel it neccesary to find links of people calling freud a bullshitter, because it's fact that hardly anyone in the profession use his models anymore.

i'm very happy to see you've actually done your research and are in a position to know what professionals in this field use and don't use anymore. thanks.

 

[Rei Toei]

welcome to the exciting world of scientology!

indeed, looks like it.

@taliesin: you are perfectly right, please don't waste your time with someone who probably believes we must fight aliens, cure cancer with vitamins, clean up radiations in our bodies with sauna and that the world is dominated by evil psychiatric organizations.

@siren: we shall forgive him only if he looks half as good. without makeup.

 

[Siren]

Ok, i was going to save you all from the pain of a fourth post by the means of edit, but since there was another post in between you will all suffer a new post.

I dont know of any distinctions between psychology and psychiatry as fields of science. A psychologist is someone who studied psychology, and a psychiatrist is a doctor who specialised on psychology.

That's pretty much it, a psychologist has studied psychology, whereas a psychiatrist has studied medicine and then specialised in psychiatry for a number of years.
A psychologist does psychanalysis and counselling, a psychiatrist has the right to prescribe medication. Let's say the psychologist should be able to see for example if someone is a schizophrenic, and then that person would be treated by a psychiatrist.

Well if we talk about curing disorders through medication, then it's biology (a real science). If it's through different means of excercise and encouragement, it's therapy. It's not a science because of this.

Get your facts right.
-Biology is studying cells and bugs and mice.
-Psychology is studying of the human psyche and one of its practices is therapy.
-Psychiatry is curing disorders through medication. Because yes, not all disorders are vague psyche shit, but some have to do with physical shit, even if we don't fully understand how.
-Psychiatry also uses therapy. In fact, therapy (which is a weird term to use like this, but i'm using it the way you mean it) is in many cases complementary with the medication part.

Now i'd suggest getting a better hold on these things (like study a real science or smt) before you can pass judgement on what is science and what isn't.

@siren: we shall forgive him only if he looks half as good. without makeup.

damn, girl, why did you have to remind me the makeup part?

and i still prefer brad pitt.

 

[Arch]

I wouldn't say it's a complete sham. I mean, there's a lot of research done and some/most of these findings are solid facts. And some findings (a few) are waaay out there.

 

[Taliesin]

Thank you Siren