Israel's assault on Gaza and Hamas

[Dak]

Why Israel suddenly decided to retaliate I don't know. The rocket attacks it is using as its justification have been going on for years, yet all of a sudden they bring full force like this. I can see it going the same way as the Lebanon conflict did.

I would guess the reasoning for now has something to do with the changing of the guard in the US political scene and the upcoming Israeli elections.

 

[mutantllama]

Just another Holy war.


As Hansi would sing it.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I back Israel here. Ceasefires do nothing, sanctions do nothing. As an ally of the US in a very conflicted area, I'd like to see Israel suppress the power of Hamas.

 

[The Ozzman]

Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land..

 

[skeptik]

I didn't read this thread, but I'm just going to say that, despite the obvious fact that "a sovereign nation has a right to defend itself," which is the excuse that perpetually allows Israel off the hook, the problem with this entire millennia-long conflict is that the one thing that never actually gets addressed is the root causes. The world just wants them to stop throwing missiles at each other for a couple months, and then they just do it again, over and over. It doesn't matter to people that the conflict will arise again in 6 months, it just matters that it's not happening right now, and that's the problem. Well, one of the problems. Another one being how you even address the root causes of this conflict, let alone satisfactorily resolve them.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Well, yeah, but no one really wants to "solve" the problem.

 

[Death Aflame]

Well, yeah, but no one really wants to "solve" the problem.

And that is the problem, is it not (unless you are referring to something else)?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yeah, that is a problem.

 

[Dak]

Maybe the solution is to not let either side have that area. Fair to all

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I don't think that would work, for whatever reason.

 

[Dak]

Hence the wink.

 

[Zephyrus]

I didn't read this thread, but I'm just going to say that, despite the obvious fact that "a sovereign nation has a right to defend itself," which is the excuse that perpetually allows Israel off the hook, the problem with this entire millennia-long conflict is that the one thing that never actually gets addressed is the root causes. The world just wants them to stop throwing missiles at each other for a couple months, and then they just do it again, over and over. It doesn't matter to people that the conflict will arise again in 6 months, it just matters that it's not happening right now, and that's the problem. Well, one of the problems. Another one being how you even address the root causes of this conflict, let alone satisfactorily resolve them.

Understanding the root causes doesn't solve anything. Technically, the whole place belongs to the Jews, but that hasn't been the case since the Romans expelled them in the 2nd century. 200 years later it became Christian, until the Saracens kicked out the Byzantines, making it mostly Muslim ever since. Heck, this same shit was going on during the Crusades as it is now, only it was Christendom vs. Islam rather than Judaism vs. Islam.

So technically, the Israelis own the place entirely, but by that same logic the Native Americans can rightfully overthrow the US government.

So discussing root causes accomplishes little, either than establishing opposing arguments for sovereignty, the "we were there first" (both sides use this acutally) and "our people conquered the place long ago".

 

[cookiecutter]

This a particularly complex issue and I can't say I have taken a ton of time to analyze it. However where I stand now I support Israel in this particular instance. Leaving all else aside, Hamas is purposefully attacking civilians and must be stopped. I don't think there is any other short term way to do that other than military force.

In the long term though I think both sides, along with other forces in the region are all equally at fault. It is becoming clear that no one really wants this conflict to be over. The Palestinians are engaging in terrorism while the Israelis are not allowing the Palestinians the means to gain prosperity. It's just shitty situation all around and I wish there were more people in the US and European governments that were informed and could help solve this problem.

 

[Cythraul]

*agrees with cookiecutter*

 

[Zephyrus]

Ideally they should unite into one nation. But they take their ethnic identities too seriously and too many consider the issue a conflict of religions than of geographical sovereignty.

I like Israel, too. Wouldn't it be nice if all the other Muslim countries allow all the Palestinians to emigrate freely and easily into other Arab countries.

 

[challenge_everything]

Saying the conflict is intractable is a cop-out. Israel and the Palestinians have come so close to a negotiated agreement twice in the past when Yasser Arafat was in power, which would have led to a Palestinian state, but on both occasions Israel pulled out at the last minute (and note this was not due to violence on the part of the Palestinians). As long as the Palestinians have no state, Hamas can continue to draw on the acquiescence or support of the civilian population and other Muslim states. Take that support base and motivation away, and watch the rug pulled out from under them (remembering that the terrorists are a tiny minority of the population).

 

[Dak]

I agree there are problems enough to go around in the situation, but Hamas kills couple people here and there, and Israel reacted by just bombing the shit out of Palestine. Two wrongs don't make it right, they just compound the problem.

The Arab-Jew conflict will not be solved until one or the other factions ceases to exist, because it is religion-blood related.They were fighting over that land thousands of years ago, then they stopped fighting each other because more powerful empires came along and kind of derailed their conflicts.

Then you had Western powers fighting over the same ground, until the Jews were reintroduced. Ironically , most of the Jews in Israel today are not necessarily bloodline descendants of Jacob(Israel), making the current conflict even more rediculous than it already is.

We have no business backing Israel like we do, they are as much of a problem in the middle east as any other country.

 

[Liisa]

Finally a thread on this important subject arises. Firstly, how can you call Israel 'Silly'. They are an extremely advanced scientific and military community and with the great dog of America on it's leash, it is really the most powerful nation in the world. Hamas rockets where fired in retalliation because of Israel cutting supplies to innocents in Gaza. The civilians where mercilessly provoked. In response to these 'rockets' , Israeli soldiers can kill Palestian children and blow up hospitals with the excuse; 'Hamas is hiding weapons behind them!'. What? How do you know there is weapons when you do not enter the hospital, you simply blow it up. How is this justified?

One unbiased report I heard told of Israeli leaflets being distributed to Palestinian civilians homes telling them to take refuge in one school. They did so and the school was later bombed. I believe the death toll is now over what 'official' figures state.

Check this out;

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

 

[challenge_everything]

What if Egypt, Jordan, and Syria had won the Six Day War?

Here's a thought experiment:

Imagine that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria had won the Six Day War, leading to a massive exodus of Jews from the territory of Israel. Imagine that the victorious Arab states had eventually decided to permit the Palestinians to establish a state of their own on the territory of the former Jewish state. (That's unlikely, of course, but this is a thought experiment). Imagine that a million or so Jews had ended up as stateless refugees confined to that narrow enclave known as the Gaza Strip. Then imagine that a group of hardline Orthodox Jews took over control of that territory and organized a resistance movement. They also steadfastly refused to recognize the new Palestinian state, arguing that its creation was illegal and that their expulsion from Israel was unjust. Imagine that they obtained backing from sympathizers around the world and that they began to smuggle weapons into the territory. Then imagine that they started firing at Palestinian towns and villages and refused to stop despite continued reprisals and civilian casualties.

Here's the question: would the United States be denouncing those Jews in Gaza as "terrorists" and encouraging the Palestinian state to use overwhelming force against them?

Here's another: would the United States have even allowed such a situation to arise and persist in the first place?

This is in fact more than just a thought experiment if you know your history. Back when Britain still controlled the land of Israel in the 1940s, their empire was falling apart and they were seeking to withdraw. The Jews were a minority and a large part of the reason why they gained control of the area was because of acts of terrorism carried out against the British and the Palestinians. The Irgun, as they were known, basically invented modern terrorism. Is it any surprise then that the Palestinians, once they found themselves in the same position, turned to the same tactics?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

...Israel is the most powerful nation and has America on its leash?...really?