James Labrie & Sir Rusell???

[Rick Pierpont]

Why does everything have to turn into Dt vs. Symphony X? Petrucci vs. Romeo? LaBrie vs. Allen?

Dream Theater and Symphony X are my two favorite bands. They happily co-exist in my CD collection with no smoke pouring out. :Smokin: I think both bands are amazing. They both write amazing songs, they both have phenomenal players, etc... I like each member of the band for the different traits they bring to their respective bands.

LaBrie and Allen are both incredible vocalist with two VERY DIFFERENT styles. It really comes down to who we all prefer! Each one has different strengths and weaknesses and they both fit their respective bands like a glove! Oddly enough, they both joined their bands for their second releases and blew away the original singer.

Additionally, LaBrie went through many rough years after rupturing his vocal chords after violent puking from food poisoning. He has improved immensely in recent times! Unfortunately, I do have one prediction that many of you will not like to hear:

Russell Allen has a limited career ahead of him due to his intense vocal style. If he continues to sing the way he does, he will undoubtedly destroy his voice and then this debate will no longer exist! I hope I am wrong, but I seriously doubt it

And for the record, I saw Gigantour in Reading, PA. That was probably my 7th or 8th time (I'm losing count) seeing Symphony X and perhaps only a few more than that for DT. For the first time ever, it sounded like Allen was strained and fatigued. LaBrie was the BEST I have ever seen him live! He was even a better showman than he usually has been in the past. I still had a great time watching both bands and they were both amazing!

We all need to seriously realize that we are talking about taste and preference and not fact.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Some more detailed thoughts on both....

LaBrie:
You mentioned that Russell is going to deteriorate because of the stuff he's putting his voice through with the more recent material and touring all the time with it. James LaBrie has already done it to his voice. On a personal note, I don't like his vocal tone. It sounds whiny, and it was better back a long time ago, but still not amazing, and he's almost unlistenable for me currently (as in his voice currently, in 2005). But anyway, in my opinion he's a poor singer for his style because he doesn't do very well with the high "metal" range. For me, one way to tell the best singers in this style (as in the falsetto fueled "alto" male range), are people where it doesn't sound like they're singing amazingly high, but if you pick out the note, it's way up there. That has to do with having good support for the sound. James LaBrie isn't very skilled in that department, and you know EVERY TIME when there's a high note, because he wails to get it. So many of the Dream Theater songs you'll notice are disappearing from the setlists because they are consistantly in that upper register. They do so many less of those now and so many more of the songs where he only has to sing in a normal range and then do a bit of wailing to get to the high notes. I call it wailing because that's what it sounds like to me. It's not well controlled, it's not well supported, and it just sounds bad. On a lot of Dream Theater live things, I think he uses "soulful alteration" as an excuse for being flat, because he can't hit notes, and he dances around it. There are some noticeable notes that are flat on 'Live At Budokan.' While I'm not a fan of the tone of Circus Maximus' singer, he has the control and support in that range that James LaBrie not only doesn't have now, but has NEVER had to that degree. So from a personal listening standpoint, I don't want to listen to him singing and hear every time in his voice that he has a high note he can't hit well so he wails it out. That's poor singing, and is not pleasant for my ears. Lots of people say his best performance is on 'The Human Equation,' and I also think it's at least one of his best. Why? Because it's focused in the mid-range. Arjen writes him parts that are in the middle of the range, which is where he sounds best. So he has lots of time to prepare and just work on those parts, and it sounds drastically better than what he was doing with Dream Theater at the time. Live, even the midrange parts suffer because of his wailing. He strains out his vocal chords wailing, and then takes away a lot of the support that makes the midrange sound good tonally. Recently, I think he only writes himself into a corner by trying to sing "heavy" and aggressive in the midrange, which sounds awful for his voice I think. I think he's far from the best singer ever, but I think he would sound a ton better if he worked more with Dream Theater to make the current music cater more to what sounds good in his voice.

Russell Allen:
I think some of the same things are happening in Symphony X in terms of that. The songs are getting more heavy and aggressive, and it's not good for his voice. It sounds great on album, but realistically he's not going to sound as amazing trying to sing aggressively live. Russell Allen has a great naturally pleasing "rock" or "soulful" sounding vocal tone. But besides that, he has the control and support to make that sound good on its own, without a lot of "extra." That's really the difference between a good singer and a great singer: the good singer has a nice sounding voice to begin with, but the great singer has a nice sounding voice and the technical ability to do great things with it. But yes, obviously hitting all those high notes over the years and the more aggressive sounds with Symphony X more recently mean he doesn't have quite the range he would have had back in 1998 or something. However, he still has the range he needs to pull off the Symphony X songs excellently and not embarass himself on most of the high notes. If he's not up to hitting something, he just does something a bit differently. But he has excellent control and support in my opinion, and that directly affects the question that's all that really matters in the end, does he sound good? My answer is yes. ^_^


Feel free to tell me I suck.

 

[ReaLM]

Very well said. Your description of Labrie describes what I hear perfectly.

It is fine that so many people love Labrie; I just don't understand how so many people think that he is so amazing when so many others hear these flaws... It makes me wonder if some people's ears are more sensitive to vocal nuances than others.

And the guy who thinks Labrie's voice is great and that Russell's isn't.. now that just blows my mind. I wonder what life sounds like to him...

Robin

 

[rockyracoon]

Some more detailed thoughts on both....

LaBrie:
You mentioned that Russell is going to deteriorate because of the stuff he's putting his voice through with the more recent material and touring all the time with it. James LaBrie has already done it to his voice. On a personal note, I don't like his vocal tone. It sounds whiny, and it was better back a long time ago, but still not amazing, and he's almost unlistenable for me currently (as in his voice currently, in 2005). But anyway, in my opinion he's a poor singer for his style because he doesn't do very well with the high "metal" range. For me, one way to tell the best singers in this style (as in the falsetto fueled "alto" male range), are people where it doesn't sound like they're singing amazingly high, but if you pick out the note, it's way up there. That has to do with having good support for the sound. James LaBrie isn't very skilled in that department, and you know EVERY TIME when there's a high note, because he wails to get it. So many of the Dream Theater songs you'll notice are disappearing from the setlists because they are consistantly in that upper register. They do so many less of those now and so many more of the songs where he only has to sing in a normal range and then do a bit of wailing to get to the high notes. I call it wailing because that's what it sounds like to me. It's not well controlled, it's not well supported, and it just sounds bad. On a lot of Dream Theater live things, I think he uses "soulful alteration" as an excuse for being flat, because he can't hit notes, and he dances around it. There are some noticeable notes that are flat on 'Live At Budokan.' While I'm not a fan of the tone of Circus Maximus' singer, he has the control and support in that range that James LaBrie not only doesn't have now, but has NEVER had to that degree. So from a personal listening standpoint, I don't want to listen to him singing and hear every time in his voice that he has a high note he can't hit well so he wails it out. That's poor singing, and is not pleasant for my ears. Lots of people say his best performance is on 'The Human Equation,' and I also think it's at least one of his best. Why? Because it's focused in the mid-range. Arjen writes him parts that are in the middle of the range, which is where he sounds best. So he has lots of time to prepare and just work on those parts, and it sounds drastically better than what he was doing with Dream Theater at the time. Live, even the midrange parts suffer because of his wailing. He strains out his vocal chords wailing, and then takes away a lot of the support that makes the midrange sound good tonally. Recently, I think he only writes himself into a corner by trying to sing "heavy" and aggressive in the midrange, which sounds awful for his voice I think. I think he's far from the best singer ever, but I think he would sound a ton better if he worked more with Dream Theater to make the current music cater more to what sounds good in his voice.

Russell Allen:
I think some of the same things are happening in Symphony X in terms of that. The songs are getting more heavy and aggressive, and it's not good for his voice. It sounds great on album, but realistically he's not going to sound as amazing trying to sing aggressively live. Russell Allen has a great naturally pleasing "rock" or "soulful" sounding vocal tone. But besides that, he has the control and support to make that sound good on its own, without a lot of "extra." That's really the difference between a good singer and a great singer: the good singer has a nice sounding voice to begin with, but the great singer has a nice sounding voice and the technical ability to do great things with it. But yes, obviously hitting all those high notes over the years and the more aggressive sounds with Symphony X more recently mean he doesn't have quite the range he would have had back in 1998 or something. However, he still has the range he needs to pull off the Symphony X songs excellently and not embarass himself on most of the high notes. If he's not up to hitting something, he just does something a bit differently. But he has excellent control and support in my opinion, and that directly affects the question that's all that really matters in the end, does he sound good? My answer is yes. ^_^


Feel free to tell me I suck.

Times like this I'm reminded of a song lyric from Tool. "He had a lot to say, he had a lot of nothing to say..." If the thread were called "Barking Pumpkin's personal assessment of people far more talented than himself," your novel of a response would have been very appropriate. You clearly represent someone who has not followed James Labries career from the beginning to where it is now. Instead, I'm guessing you maybe bought one or two CD's or maybe downloaded some of his material, and never took the time to analyze the maturing process his voice has gone through. You reference DT live shows and how they omit certain material. Well, I have attended multiple shows of virtually every tour they've done. I've seen DT shows that wow'ed me, and some that left me wanted more. However, one thing I've always seen is ALL their material, save maybe one or two select Kevin Moore written tracks. DT always delivers with the deep cuts and never omits ANY material in their catalog. In regards to him not hitting certain notes, well look at his age, people can't sustain the same voice their whole life. In my opinion, his voice has matured into something much more powerful and unique, and perhaps he takes a different approach to certain DT songs now, but so what? You just like being negative. Thats all I ever see of your posts, negativity.

 

[ReaLM]

You clearly represent someone who has not followed James Labries career from the beginning to where it is now. Instead, I'm guessing you maybe bought one or two CD's or maybe downloaded some of his material, and never took the time to analyze the maturing process his voice has gone through .

So apparently since he has not studied DT's entire catalog or seen a ton of their live shows you think that makes his opinion of what he HAS heard invalid?
You do not have to a singer's life's work in order to have an opinion about their voice. Hell, sometimes can form my opinion about a vocalist in one song if they are bad enough.

You just like being negative. Thats all I ever see of your posts, negativity.

The post is not negative; it is analytical. You only find it negative b/c the analysis disagrees with your opinion. Why don't you break down his analysis with analysis of your own? I would be far more interested in your post if you did that. I find the "you don't know what you're talking about/you are just being negative" argument a poor counter in any debate.

Robin

 

[rockyracoon]

So apparently since he has not studied DT's entire catalog or seen a ton of their live shows you think that makes his opinion of what he HAS heard invalid?
You do not have to a singer's life's work in order to have an opinion about their voice. Hell, sometimes can form my opinion about a vocalist in one song if they are bad enough.



The post is not negative; it is analytical. You only find it negative b/c the analysis disagrees with your opinion. Why don't you break down his analysis with analysis of your own? I would be far more interested in your post if you did that. I find the "you don't know what you're talking about/you are just being negative" argument a poor counter in any debate.

Robin

Well Im sorry I view it as negative. Just because it's wrapped in a bunch of what you call "analysis" doesnt change a thing. The thread clearly asked a question, and BP's post didnt even attempt at trying to answer it. It instead went in a very typical and predictable direction.

Also, I do find his opinions to be invalid for the very reasons you stated. I would be curious to know just how many times BP has seen Labrie perform live in any capacity. His post loses all credibility with me when he sites completely false info, and I'm not refering to matters of personal taste. I would welcome comments like his more if hey spoke from the perspective of someone who has followed Labrie's career for a stretch of time, rather than someone who simply popped in a few discs and a dvd and proceeded to sum up Labrie's entire career.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

I don't know what "perspective" you interpreted from my post, but I own 'When Dream And Day Unite' through 'Octavarium,' save 'Train Of Thought' which I get the gist of the sound from, but I have more pressing things to buy. I have seen all of the Dream Theater DVD's they've released. I admit I've never been able to actually see them live, but I have 50 gigabytes of Dream Theater bootlegs (which they condone, by the way), ranging from the instrumental shows in 1986 to Gigantour shows from less than two months ago, which adds up to over sixty shows. So tell me I'm a negative asshole, but please don't tell me I don't know enough about Dream Theater to talk about them. I hardly consider analyzing why I don't like his singing "me loving being negative."

Also, please point out specifically where I "cite completely false info," and I will either correct myself, or further explain why I said what I said.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

You reference DT live shows and how they omit certain material. Well, I have attended multiple shows of virtually every tour they've done. I've seen DT shows that wow'ed me, and some that left me wanted more. However, one thing I've always seen is ALL their material, save maybe one or two select Kevin Moore written tracks. DT always delivers with the deep cuts and never omits ANY material in their catalog. In regards to him not hitting certain notes, well look at his age, people can't sustain the same voice their whole life. In my opinion, his voice has matured into something much more powerful and unique, and perhaps he takes a different approach to certain DT songs now, but so what? You just like being negative. Thats all I ever see of your posts, negativity.

They do a great job of getting lots of material and changing up their sets, but the fact remains that there are things they don't play much because LaBrie can't do the songs all that well, which is all that I was saying. The most obvious example here is "Take The Time," which they haven't done since 2002. I have several recordings of this from that tour, and there is no "taking a different approach," it's that he can't do the song. Same thing goes for things like parts of "Caught In A Web." Yes, they pull out old things, but really it seems like there's just lots of "Pull Me Under" and "Metropolis," and not too much material that you can't get away with. What I mean, is that they have a lot of songs that have moderate parts and then high notes, but not a whole lot of songs that really require a strong range throughout a section. And the songs that have those, are the ones that you'll see getting left out of sets more and more. This is why if Russell Allen ever "goes down," he's really going to go down. Because like 90% of Symphony X songs need a very strong range through a good portion of the song. The high notes aren't just stuck in at parts, they are the song, which means you can sing them or you can't.


I'm trying to be somewhat objective in my analysis. You can talk about "emotion," evolution, how great Dream Theater are, etc. but the objective qualities here are things that come under the realm of technical singing ability. So I don't care if you like James LaBrie, but I'm pointing out the things I hear when I listen to various facets of his singing, not trying to be negative.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

I sort of agree with BP, JLB's voice has deterioorated in terms of pure balls.
I know he did damge to himself with food poisoning, but from what I've heard & seen live, he's a shadow of his former self since I&W & Awake. I will not say he's a shitty singer, he just sings with less balls than he did during their earlier years.

Now as far as RA, I HOPE he never suffers the Bruce Dickinson Syndrome, and if he does, he comes out of it as well as Bruce did.

I think BD's voice was pretty much shot after Powerslave & Somewhere In Time. As a HUGE maiden fan, I HATED his vox in everything else after that, until Accident of Birth came out. Perhaps the rest after the split from Maiden did him well. I think it all boils down to (obviously) taking the best care of yourself, and your voice......

 

[ReaLM]

Well Im sorry I view it as negative. Just because it's wrapped in a bunch of what you call "analysis" doesnt change a thing. The thread clearly asked a question, and BP's post didnt even attempt at trying to answer it. It instead went in a very typical and predictable direction.

The Russell part was in no way negative and this thread has been long off topic...

Also, I do find his opinions to be invalid for the very reasons you stated.

So according to you, in order to "validly" dislike Labrie, I have to go torture myself with DT's entire catalog and Live shows? :zombie: I wouldn't survive...

Robin

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

If that's his definition, then I most definitely validly dislike LaBrie.

 

[rockyracoon]

I sort of agree with BP,

You would...

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Do you have anything constructive to say? I underminded 80% of your response when it turned out that I probably have more Dream Theater than you do, so now you're just doing this?

 

[rockyracoon]

Do you have anything constructive to say? I underminded 80% of your response when it turned out that I probably have more Dream Theater than you do, so now you're just doing this?

Doing what exactly? You have certainly not underminded any of my response. The only thing you do is come off as a wise ass punk. You would rather write out some diatribe trying to break apart every aspect of Labrie's voice rather than actually respond to the initial question of the thread. You routinely pop up with ridiculous posts trying to criticize bands/artists by masking your criticism behind a whole bunch of "technical" explanations. You dont sound to me like someone who knows what its like to enjoy a show/band/artist because you're too busy trying to break everything apart based on something you probably learned in 8th grade band or some high school theory class. The fact is, nothing you ever post resembles an original thought in the least bit. Instead, your "opinions" sound completely contrived and are nothing more than an attempt at sounding witty and intelligent, and the end result is you coming off as a condescending jerk.

That being said, go listen to Frameshift or Madmen and Sinners.

 

[Ascension]

l'll chime in on this again...was gonna leave it alone because these threads meander pointlessly with people giving opinions & self appointed "validations" when they themselves have no music background to speak of & know nothing of the dynamics involved in what makes a vocalist or musician what he his or what determines what he does. I have been in a number of bands, done a club circuit, and recorded a 4 song demo. I have touched on many styles of music...but gravitated toward prog. I've covered songs by DT, SymX, Queensryche,etc. I have a fairly broad range in my vocal ability. I will say the higher range material is the most difficult. Labrie & Tate's being very difficult...Russell Allen's on the other hand one of the easiest. I remember doing SymX songs and thinking...whew, I get a break. I speak from experience...not just from hearing something off of a CD.
So...you can give your opinions and feel validated & vindicated and get that warm & cuddly feeling all you want. But...if you've never been there you just don't know.
Oh...wanna talk about a whiny singer? Hell...stick Daniel Gildenlow from PoS in there. He ranks at the top as far as whiny asses go. His rants to the audience are even whiny..."I just flew in from the Flower Kings gig, blah, blah blah...." Hey Daniel!! STFU and just play.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[AngraRULES]

Doing what exactly? You have certainly not underminded any of my response. The only thing you do is come off as a wise ass punk. You would rather write out some diatribe trying to break apart every aspect of Labrie's voice rather than actually respond to the initial question of the thread. You routinely pop up with ridiculous posts trying to criticize bands/artists by masking your criticism behind a whole bunch of "technical" explanations. You dont sound to me like someone who knows what its like to enjoy a show/band/artist because you're too busy trying to break everything apart based on something you probably learned in 8th grade band or some high school theory class. The fact is, nothing you ever post resembles an original thought in the least bit. Instead, your "opinions" sound completely contrived and are nothing more than an attempt at sounding witty and intelligent, and the end result is you coming off as a condescending jerk.

I have to admit I agree with him in some points, disagree in others.

 

[Petethedrummer]

Way to be specific

 

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

I am pretty sure that AngraRules made a thread called no more forum wars, while this is just small war just agree to disagree fucking christ. I enjoy both singers immensely, but considering that I come from a pretty "aggressive" music back round I easily prefer Russell any day of the week, and I know I am in a great minority but I prefer Labrie's vocals on ToT more than most other albums. As a matter of ToT is one of my favorite DT albums. Though I listened to Awake for the first time yesterday and it did get bumped back that is for sure musically that album is phenomal, and also IMO better than
I & W.

Ian

 

[rockyracoon]

I am pretty sure that AngraRules made a thread called no more forum wars, while this is just small war just agree to disagree fucking christ. I enjoy both singers immensely, but considering that I come from a pretty "aggressive" music back round I easily prefer Russell any day of the week, and I know I am in a great minority but I prefer Labrie's vocals on ToT more than most other albums. As a matter of ToT is one of my favorite DT albums. Though I listened to Awake for the first time yesterday and it did get bumped back that is for sure musically that album is phenomal, and also IMO better than
I & W.

Ian

well then lets get back on topic. going off of the original thread question, id be interested in knowing what Labrie project everyone would be interested in seeing live, considering he's done quite a few.

 

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

I personally would like to see Elements of Persuasion.