just wanna say...

[Eire]

In '93, the World Trade Center was attack via car bomb by Bin Laden's people. During the impeachment proceedings, ('98 I think) two US embassies in Africa were bombed with severe casualties. Granted those events aren't the same scale, but the only other event that is on that level is Pearl Harbor.

Alright, fair enough. I didn't remember the event in 93.

Fair question, but here's my problem. In '98, when I started driving, gas was around $0.93/gal. Before the Iraq War it was around $1.60. After the Iraq War, it's $1.40. If it is for oil, I'm not seeing the benefits.

Well, it has gone down and if changes are made too suddenly it can cause more problems that solving them. I suppose its fair to say we will have to wait and see how things go.

Surprisingly enough, as I saw on a documentary once, the Twin Towers were actaully designed to withstand a plane crashing into them. Obviously not one that was purposely trying to hit and destroy then, but an accidental impact.

Well, there isn't too much of a difference between accidental hit and a destroy hit. The impact is the same. When were the twin towers built anyway?

As for Saddam's trial, of course he'll be found guilty. Fairness is rather irrelevant. I just wonder what the actual charges will be.

The charges will be interesting to hear. The trial will be a remembered moment in history anyway. One thing I have to say for Saddam is, he looks better with the beard.

Bush took office in January 2001, eight months later...September 11. Do you really think Clinton would have reacted that differently? He'd already ordered his own cruise missile attacks against Al-Quaeda on a much smaller scale. I thought Clinton, regardless of the Monica thing, was a good president and I would be seriously disappointed if he hadn't responded with similar force.

I think he would have handled it better, but its hard to say about the level of force. Clinton and Bush have very different methods of handling things. Bush seems to be quite hot headed and speaks before thinking at times. He's not the best at diplomatic relations. Clinton was better.

No he probably woudn't have. When is everybody going to get over this? Oil is the world's most precious resource, and what the fuck do you think people have fought over for thousands of years? Resources! Oil is the lifeblood of our civilized world, whether you like it or not, and the vast majorities of the world reserves are controlled by countries like Iraq: dictatorships, monarchies, religious regimes. Most of these countires are socially antiquated, with terrible human rights records. If it wasn't for their oil, they would probably look more like Afghanistan, Third World tribal groups, living in stone huts, ruled by corrupt local warlords.

For thousands of year people fought over different things, eg. land, gold, religion. Oil's value only increased because of a decline in other natural resources and because of more uses for it. Not all oil reserves are in control of dictatorships etc. Its just the most advertised one happened to be. All countries have had some bad human rights records, including USA. Every country started off with stone huts and its warlords, it just wasn't cataloged in history.

That's because we give them huge amounts of money every year, moreso than any other country by far, and believe that gives us a bit of say in how they run their affairs. What are we supposed to do, adopt a policy of isolationism? If we retracted all the aid packages (i.e. money) we gave out each year, do you realize how many countires economies would tank?

Your country gave them aid, so they could try sort out their own problems. Just because you gave them money, doesn't mean you have any right to go in and sort it out. A country will not feel truly independant if it feels it was given handouts. It can be a matter of pride for them. The reason countries put up with it is because they have become dependant on the States. And its is what you said, they probably would 'tank'. What do you think is their greatest fear? You think they want to have that thought hanging on them? They could think, 'Well, if we don't let this country have a say in our affairs, then they could pull out the cash, and then we're fucked.' Not a nice place to be in for a countries leader.

So fuck you, God bless America, we're the greatest country on earth, and everyone should be thankful for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it laid a foundation that has been copied by a number of countries, probably some of yours

Its that kind of attitude that pisses of most countries. You are the greatest country on earth because no one cares to argue with you because you have a high record of blowing the shit out of things eg. Hiroshima, Iraq, Afghanistan. No one is going to go out of their way to piss you off cos we don't want missiles and shit killing our people, there is the acception of Bin Laden who really did make it his business. Some things may have been copied from America, but you copied some things of Europe too.

Another question to ask. The contracts to rebuild Iraq are only available to American and English compaines. What do others make of it?

 

[None_So_Vile]

Its quite funny, the only real american people in america are the native american indians and they got shoved out and put into little conservations

America had the terrorist attacks coming. They'd been bullying and policing the world for too long, trying to enforce their ways on everyone else, not thinking that MABYE JUST MABYE people dont want to be like america, they want to have an identity. Everyone goes on about how people like saddam have war crimes, what about america? over 300,000 innocent people killed in cambodia and vietnam which was comdemned worldwide, yet no-one says anything about that, how about the hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed in hiroshima and nagasaki? America is just as guilty as any other war mongering country.

Everyone wouldnt hate the americans so much if they just fucked off out of everyone's business and stopped parading round the world saying "look at us, no-one fucks with us".

Bush knew fully well there were no "weapons of mass destruction" (god i hate that phrase) but he just wanted to kill some dark skinned, dodgy non-christians and also get back at daddy's old foe, saddam

I could do an anti-america rant for ages, i cant be bothered. Mostly the americans as people are very nice people but people who go round boasting about how great america is, they fuck me off but their extremely corrupt, repressive government is the thing i hate most

 

[Brainkisser]

Last time the USA went down the 'leave people alone' route we had to come rescue you guys from the Germans. Twice.

As to US war crimes, there are some that have been prosectured. I don't recall exactly what but there have been some. Of course things like Hiroshima and Nagisaki will never be viewed as war crimes here, because 1) payback for Pearl Harbor, and 2) we won the war.

You're right though, the WMD bit was a load of crap. Hell, the CIA even forged documents submitted to the UN suggesting they had nukes.

@Eire
I think the Towers were built in the late 70's- I want to say '76 but I'm not really sure. The difference between and accidental and intentional crash could be as much as 200mph. The two planes that did hit went at different speeds and you can see the fast one (the second one, I think it went around 500mph) doing much more damage at impact.

The contracts to rebuild Iraq are only available to American and English compaines. What do others make of it?

Politics. It's a kickback for people who helped us out. Makes sense if you think about it though.

On the whole oil thing: I think that the US (or any developed nation really) could cut their dependance on oil by 70% or more if they really wanted to. Cars that run on non-oil based energy sources are out there, but because of the money coming in from oil companies and taxes etc, there's no big push to get them out there.

And I thought of all that on 4 hours of sleep. Off to my final...

 

[Eire]

Of course things like Hiroshima and Nagisaki will never be viewed as war crimes here, because 1) payback for Pearl Harbor, and 2) we won the war.

Payback for Pearl Harbor!!! They didn't set of an atomic bomb on Pearl Harbor. I know people there was a lot of pain felt for both events, but it peoples lives that are being wasted, it shouldn't be about who gets who.

Politics. It's a kickback for people who helped us out. Makes sense if you think about it though.

Shouldn't it be available to who can do the best job?

On the whole oil thing: I think that the US (or any developed nation really) could cut their dependance on oil by 70% or more if they really wanted to. Cars that run on non-oil based energy sources are out there, but because of the money coming in from oil companies and taxes etc, there's no big push to get them out there.

Any country who is dependant on oil might want to think about cutting down on oil. When supplies are depleted they're fucked.

And I thought of all that on 4 hours of sleep. Off to my final...

I know how you feel. I'm suffering from Insomnia right now.

 

[Brainkisser]

Payback for Pearl Harbor!!! They didn't set of an atomic bomb on Pearl Harbor. I know people there was a lot of pain felt for both events, but it peoples lives that are being wasted, it shouldn't be about who gets who.

No, they didn't nuke Pearl. They bombed the fuck out of it without warning. When we nuked them, they knew we had hostile intentions. Vengeance matters.

Shouldn't it be available to who can do the best job?

Ideally, yeah. But for now it's favors for favors.

 

[Belgar]

Funny how americans always tend to divert the facts and truth to some old cliché à la " we saved yr ass, if it wasn't for us you would be speaking german..." rethorics. Why do you need to keep bringing the old WW2 clichés ? The year is 2003 not 1945.
To sum it up, it means we can go anywhere in the world, fuck your country up because we are the mighty powerfull ones and yr opinion don't matter and if you don't like it ... tough luck. I am still waiting on the mighty US army to go to Congo where 2-3 million people have been massacred in the last 3 years but again, the local biased Fox news does not show that and again who cares about some african country that has nothing to offer but aids riddled people and poverty.
It reminds me of an ad for Amnesty International that I saw in Belgium this summer. It had a plane crashing in the towers as a background and an african landscape, the add said "everyday for the past 3 years there has been a 9-11 in Congo". Just to let you know, the french army and some other euro. countries are the only ones to have soldiers deployed in this region and are the ones who saved the US citizens when shit hit the fan in Liberia earlier this year. After that the US promptly sent 7 officers to investigate the need for "maybe" more US troops.
So spare me, the fighters of the free world, the US has an agenda and the agenda is not freeing people, if that was the case the US would take care of the 10 millions+ US citizens who live below poverty on US soil.

I hate all this political bravado especially from people who get their news from the US propaganda news machine and WW2 special they saw on history channel.

Anyways, keep on fighting in the free world .... glad all the iraqis and afghans are enjoying their taste of freedom. Remember ... Uncle Sam wants YOU.

 

[Eisbär]

Thumps up for Belgar. The best stuff written in this thread.

 

[Eire]

@Brainkisser You live in one of the most powerful countires in the world. Do you not think that you have a responsibility to set an example to other countries instead of going for a vengence option?

@Belgar Well said. And on Liberia, there are still people there. About 3 weeks ago one of my friends went there and won't return for 7 months.

 

[Brainkisser]

@Brainkisser You live in one of the most powerful countires in the world. Do you not think that you have a responsibility to set an example to other countries instead of going for a vengence option?

Of course we have a responsibility to set a good example for other countries. I don't think we're doing that. But I do think that vengeance is the right thing, at least on a personal level. On an international level there's too many things to consider, but I sure as hell don't believe in letting people get away with attacking us. I don't want to set the example that it's ok to blow up our buildings, or anyone else's - without direct provocation.

@Belgar
The WWII thing was just to show that intervention in needed. If a large power remains isolated, things can get out of control and by the time they come around to get involved it'll be a huge mess.

On a side note, I'm going to be away from a computer for a few days so I probably won't be contributing to this thread till next week, if it's still going.

 

[Over Broen]

i know this was awhile back in thread but i love a historical disscussion. to the commonets about the atom bomb being dropped on japan i think it was terrible but without any other choice, the only other choice being operation olympic(basicly like d-day onto the japanese islands) where it was estimated that losses would be upwards of 70,000. so why kill your country men when you could kill the enemy? brutal though it may be.

 

[Sumerian]

American forign policy is about nothing other than corprate globalization, manipultating wage slavery, and finding poor countries to work in American factories. Don't forget this is also the very same agenda of all the nations of the "free world". It is no coincidence the world bank is in Washington DC. G Dubya Busch is a complete moron and hypocrit in my opinion, but the reason for all this shit is the "free market", which get's its support from most all the countries represented on this forum. For the last 40 yrs you can find an interesting trend in all the skirmishes and stupid battles that have been waged; Supressing social revolutions.
Anyway, I wish we could go back to the times of Egil and Scallagrim, and spend our summers in longships, disemboweling people when they lie to us and say they are out of ale, yet serve a great party the next day.

 

[sanityfails]

Hiroshima and Nagisaki will never be viewed as war crimes here, because 1) payback for Pearl Harbor, and 2) we won the war.

then in another post you say about how vengence matters, i agree in some cases such as pearl harbour it does matter. but just look at the facts

june 7th '41 japanese bombed pearl harbour, 2,300 died. august 6th '45 hiroshima was bombed, by the end of '45 140,000 people were dead from either the explosion or radiation poisoning. august 9th '45 nagasaki bombed, by the end of the year an estimated 70,000 people dead.

2,300 american deaths to 210,000 japanese deaths. thats almost 100 times more. sorry but that seems a bit excessive for "payback" or "vengence" to me.

 

[Over Broen]

G Dubya Busch is a complete moron and hypocrit QUOTE]

hypocrit maybe but i still think there is alot more going on that we can't see and gwb probably isnt as stupid as he is put out to be. but thats just my opinion.

 

[AxeOfDarkness]

2,300 american deaths to 210,000 japanese deaths. thats almost 10 times more. sorry but that seems a bit excessive for "payback" or "vengence" to me.

ya but they sure did learn there lesson didnt they?

 

[Golden Hall]

So if America is not setting a good example, which country would you prefer as the world superpower? Don't give me any "global village" bullshit, there are always going to be a select few nations at the "top of the heap", right now it happens to be the U.S. But what if we lost the Cold War, and Russia/Communism was now the global superpower? Boy, then you guys would have plenty to bitch about. Who else? France seems convinced they're still much more important than they are, maybe we should hand them the reins. You think Americans can be arrogant, the French would be insufferable

 

[Eisbär]

Uh yeah.....Perl Harbor....Man, the shit happend wasn't that big like everybody says, 'cuz the most ships hit by bombs were repairable.
So, Pearl Habor is a quite crappy comparison.

The a-bombs on Japan weren't neccessary, 'cuz Japan was already kinda down and occupied with other stuff, and damage in this big scale wasn't needed, so the a-bomb shit is nothing more then a "We have the big shit so don't fuck with us"-show.
AND the US only became important because of the loss of the axis powers. Before that the USA was nothing more then unimportant in world politics.... Remind that. Okay, USA on a power trip. They developed the weapons, they thought they are the smartest guys on the planet and started fuckin' around. Nice.
Then came Vietnam, and America got its ass kicked. Cold War, was nothing really big, except the fact that threating with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons is cool(it was nothing more more then pure paranoia - a typical example for the "what would be, when...." question with the result of freaking out people on both sides). Then some other shit in middle America, then Iraq part I, then Iraq part II (got its ass kicked again). Have I forgotten/missed something? The most wars fought by the US are wars later then WW2.
Nice evidence.

The problem is, that the US started to behave like munchkins on a weapon madness and to think they can do everything. Started fuckin' around with things that are out of their concern and out of their understanding and set the US as a kind of "perfect" country. Now that this era is over, the power of the US starts to decrease, at least now overt criticism is shown. For some years that wasn't possible in such a big scale.
And some people just can't live with criticism...

 

[Cadarn]

hey, men! Why are you struggling so much about violence and war? First I hear stuff like death to the christians and to humanity and then all this moralism?!? Excuse me if you think Im unsensitive but Im pretty straight about expressing my thoughts.

 

[Over Broen]

hey, men! Why are you struggling so much about violence and war? First I hear stuff like death to the christians and to humanity and then all this moralism?!? Excuse me if you think Im unsensitive but Im pretty straight about expressing my thoughts.

the mans got a point there if your goning to bitch about the us and whatnot and listen to amon amarth i think you should re-think your ideals or your music.

@the a-bombing of japan. you guys seem to forget that the japanese were absolute animals during ww2 sure everyone remembers hiroshima/nagasaki but do any of you even know about the death marches or perhaps the invasion of hong kong were they killed or captured all soldiers and raped the nurses and women. the tourtures and prisons used by the japanese rivaled the horror of vlad 3(the impaler) only on a much bigger scale.
i dont think anyone would have objected to bombing the nazis yet the japs were doing the same things in manchuria and china.

 

[Tomasz]

the mans got a point there if your goning to bitch about the us and whatnot and listen to amon amarth i think you should re-think your ideals or your music.

@the a-bombing of japan. you guys seem to forget that the japanese were absolute animals during ww2 sure everyone remembers hiroshima/nagasaki but do any of you even know about the death marches or perhaps the invasion of hong kong were they killed or captured all soldiers and raped the nurses and women. the tourtures and prisons used by the japanese rivaled the horror of vlad 3(the impaler) only on a much bigger scale.
i dont think anyone would have objected to bombing the nazis yet the japs were doing the same things in manchuria and china.

Actually, my great grandma from Manchuria raped one of the soldiers.

 

[Over Broen]

Actually, my great grandma from Manchuria raped one of the soldiers.

so you know about the atrocities commited during the war. my great uncle was one of the ones captured and put on a death march after the loss of hong kong he died in the camps. perhaps this gives me a bias but then again i have absolutely nothing against the japanese just their policy in ww2.