Keep live music live!

[speedy1383]

I was bothered a little bit by it. I wondered why Savage Circus didn't bring a keyboard player. It was strange. And the Vision Divine singer waiting until a recording finished was odd as well. Epica had no choice but to have some recorded stuff. It would have changed the songs greatly without it. So yes it did bother me some, but not enough to ruin the experience for me.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Thank you for this thread.....I hate it. I don't mind a pre-recorded intro, but the rest of it should be performed live, especially vocals. I believe the weapon of choice is a sequencer, computer or ipod device with all the backing tracks already recorded with click track or some other timing mechanism. The drummer will either start it and/or count the band in. Pyramaze was definitely using something like this, as opposed to a harmonizer as someone mentioned earlier.

Well ... some bands don't have five members who can sing - some bands might only have one (the lead vocalist) being able to sing. So in that case, I think it's fair that they bring pre-recorded backing vocals (as was the case with Pyramaze) in order to make the music sound more "full".

c.

 

[AngraRULES]

Of course it costs more. But the cost to send one additional person (e.g., a keyboardist) with an entire band, is a small proportion of the rest of the cost of the tour. I'd argue that in many cases sending that lone extra person would increase the quality of the show exponentially. Again, in many cases, that additional person could be hired in the US (if that's where the tour is), even cutting down further on expenses (if that's all one cares about).

No it's not man. Think about it. If a band comes from a country such as Brazil (let me use a country that I actually know prices of things needed for someone to come and tour). US Working VISAS would add at least another $400 to $500 per PERSON. Flying tickets should be around $900 both ways, plus any other costs that that person may have with the band while on tour. While I do agree that it would increase the quality of the show, you just can't get Andre Matos to come and tour with Epica just because he was part of the choir on Consign to Oblivion. There are more things other than just the pricing that I didn't need to mention beforehand.

What is it with metal fans? The message I'm getting off this thread is that most fans don't care that they're seeing a live show where the majority of the instruments/vocals being played aren't actually live. Is the visual experience all you want? This is an anomaly in the larger music community. And don't say it's because metal bands need the extra backing for that "fuller sound"- maybe they do, maybe they don't. Many, many bands manage quite well without recorded samples, either by rearranging music or by hiring additional artists.

What is it with you? You're getting a very wrong message (only in your point of view apparently). You don't seem to be a real metal fan if you really think we only care for visual effect. Metal bands DO need the extra backing in some instances. Now, the day you get a full orchestra to back up Rhapsody on an US Tour or something like that, I will pay you a beer.

Two years ago, I flew to Finland and schlepped myself across the country to Kitee for Nightwish's CD release. After the show, I wondered why I'd bothered- the entire show sounded *exactly* like the album, with some banter and visuals thrown in. How is that providing me, or any audience member, with a memorable concert experience?

Having pre-recorded tracks at a metal concert IS PART OF THE EXPERIENCE nowadays. You just can't pull that off at EVERY show you do! Just look at a band such as Dream Theater, do you think they can have the orchestra with them everytime they play Metropolis or Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence? As far as I'm concerned, only in the special occasion of the Anniversary dvd in NYC.

 

[VenomGA]

Just a quick question since no one has brought it, Was anyone bothered by the Spoken parts being piped in when Evergrey sang songs off of the Inner Circle cd???

 

[scottie2024]

Yeah, but DT doesn't have an orchestra part in Metropolis. That was a one-off thing for the DVD.
6DOIT's overture isn't played live (though it was sampled on the 2002 World Tourbulence Tour). All the rest is played with just the band.

 

[Bryan316]

When Blind Guardian released A Night At The Opera, I didn't really like it. When I heard the songs played live, I totally dug them, because they were stripped down simplified versions of the songs, and far easier to listen to.

When Symphony X did The Odyssey at Prog Power, I could tell all the missing orchestrated parts, but didn't mind it at all. It just sounded different. Not worse, not less of a song, just.... LIVE.

I like well-produced albums with lots of shit going on. But, I also like live shows where all that extra stuff isn't really necessary. Kinda like seeing Rage live. All the backing rhythm tracks were gone, and it was just Victor and his solos blasting away. I like that. I know my brother HATES when the rhythm guitars drop out because a band only has one guitarist, but hey, they only have one guitarist. But I like being able to hear every note that way.

I say, record the album you want your fans to hear, but when it comes to playing them live, strip them down and give the raw, core, meat-and-potatoes version of the song. Don't try to keep all the glitter and glamor of the album version.

As a funny man once said... "Don't church it up, boy, it's Dirt!"

 

[AngraRULES]

Yeah, but DT doesn't have an orchestra part in Metropolis. That was a one-off thing for the DVD.
6DOIT's overture isn't played live (though it was sampled on the 2002 World Tourbulence Tour). All the rest is played with just the band.

What if they decided to do it at shows, from now on?

How about Rhapsody, and Nightwish, and so many other bands?

 

[peacecat]

When Blind Guardian released A Night At The Opera, I didn't really like it. When I heard the songs played live, I totally dug them, because they were stripped down simplified versions of the songs, and far easier to listen to.

When Symphony X did The Odyssey at Prog Power, I could tell all the missing orchestrated parts, but didn't mind it at all. It just sounded different. Not worse, not less of a song, just.... LIVE.

I like well-produced albums with lots of shit going on. But, I also like live shows where all that extra stuff isn't really necessary. /snip/

I say, record the album you want your fans to hear, but when it comes to playing them live, strip them down and give the raw, core, meat-and-potatoes version of the song. Don't try to keep all the glitter and glamor of the album version.

As a funny man once said... "Don't church it up, boy, it's Dirt!"

Ditto.

I rememember turning to Gonzo halfway during a set and mentioning that I could hear additional crap going on that I couldn't see, some sort of backing instrument or vocals. I forget who was playing, but I know it happened all weekend. It finally got to the point where I was wondering how much of what I was hearing/seeing/experiencing was actually happening. That detracted from my enjoying a LIVE show. I mean, I have the CD's; why go to a live show if it's going to be, literally, like pushing "Play" on my stereo?

And I totally understand what y'all are saying about certain pieces/songs needing additional help. I suppose that's okay. But, as a personal preference, I just want to experience the band, not their sequencers.

 

[acidbasement]

I think that anyone who demands a live band to fit into any box (in this case, sounding exactly like the cd) is denying the band the very thing that allowed them to make the cd in the first place - creativity and inspiration! Similarly, any band that limits itself to sounding like their cd because they believe their fans will not accept anything else is doing the same thing. It's high treason as far as I'm concerned, and I don't enjoy being pandered to.

The studio setting allows bands many luxuries to make their sound bigger, and I am totally in favour of using whatever tricks are available toward this end. The live setting requires only one thing - rocking the house! If you are upset to hear an electric guitar playing the clarinet line from the record, tough beans, it's rock'n'roll and it's time to start rolling with it.

Anyone who says that Epica or any band would suffer from the lack of prerecorded accompaniment is full of garbage - don't knock it till you've heard it, and for the sake of all music everywhere, give them a chance to try it! I would love to hear Nightwish attempting Ghost Love Score without all the recorded stuff. At the root, it's rock'n'roll, and musicians of their calibre could make it rock if their fans would allow them the deviation.

 

[Greykiller]

Savage Circus repeatedly used taped intros to their songs.
I heard taped/flown in harmony vocals during Vision Divine and (I think) Pyramaze

honestly this doesn't really bother me, but I could see how it bothers some people.

Pyramaze absolutely did use taped vocals. So much in fact that I was pissed by the end of the set. Did Vision Divine use tracked vocals? Absolutely not--they had some background intro stuff but all vocals on all songs were Luppi. He sounded so good you might have THOUGHT he was using tracks...but that was all Lupi.

 

[Joe-×]

Does anyone besides me have a problem with the fact that half of the bands this year played with pre-recorded backup tracks?

This is called "progress" which some etymologists believe might be the root word that is the origin of the term "Progressive."

 

[saucywench]

This is called "progress" which some etymologists believe might be the root word that is the origin of the term "Progressive."

"Progressive metal is a genre of heavy metal music which shares traits with progressive rock including use of complex compositional structures, odd time signatures, and intricate instrumental playing. The high level of musical proficiency is often combined with a lyrical counterpart in the form of epic textual concepts, resulting in lengthy songs and concept albums. As a result of these factors, progressive metal is rarely heard on mainstream radio and video programs." -Wikipedia, entry on "Progressive metal".

Last time I checked, prog metal did not have anything to do with progress in electronics. Check your definitions.

 

[sccaldwell]

Fact is, I don't have a problem with it as long as there is no lip, guitar, drum or key syncing. If they in anyway are faking it STONE THEM!!!!!!!!!!! :zombie: :zombie: :zombie:

I agree...I don't have a problem with it as long as *most* of what we're hearing is being performed live, and no one on-stage is faking anything we're hearing (ie. lip-syncing).

However, I noticed the harmony vocals (with no one but the lead singer moving his mouth), but they were in such perfect sync with the lead singer that I'm pretty sure it was a harmonizer...in which case it's not really "fake"...it's just pitch-shifted harmonies based on modifying what the singer actually IS singing. So it's sort of real....in a way.

 

[sccaldwell]

I got that and was being ironic, cheesedick.

Hehehe..."cheesedick." I think Tom Englund has started a new favorite insult for ProgPower.

 

[RiffDaemon]

Pre-recorded parts in a live set sometimes bothers me, but for the most part I don't really mind it. Plus, if you think about it, it puts extra pressure on the band to stay in perfect time with the recording - so I can respect that ... of course, bands at this level shouldn't have that much trouble with that . As far as Epica goes, I didn't care at all. Everyone on stage was giving it their all, and I loved it.

 

[Andy Laudano]

Again, many bands pull off bringing in one or many more additional members for a tour- living outside the US is a piss-poor excuse.
Recording a DVD is all the more reason for NOT using backing tracks- for pity's sake, I've already bought the album once, why on earth would I want something that's the same, only with visuals? I'm far less inclined to buy a concert DVD if I know it contains backing tracks. To me, perfection does not entail using material that has already been recorded and sold as part of another feature.

It's a HUGE expense to bring over even one extra person. Work visas and airfare are not cheap. Not to mention any travel expenses once inside the US. Bands from this genre do not play huge stadiums. There's not a lot of money to be made touring in the US right now. I was talking to Christofer Johnsson from Therion and he said it cost him an extra $1,000 per person (not including airfare, personal visas, tour bus, etc.) just to come and tour the US. With 10 bandmembers he was already down $10,000 before even stepping foot in the US.

You may not want that perfect album quality sound on a DVD, but you're in the minority. Most consumers want a live recordings to sound as close to the original as possible. Unless it's specifically stated, all live recordings are in some way touched up and cleaned up.

For me a live performance is a chance to hear a lead vocalist's voice live, to watch a lead guitarist's fingers as he plays, watching a drummer spinning, flipping, throwing and catching his sticks while never missing a beat, to watch the band interact with each other and the crowd. It's the atmosphere of the arena, the lights, the sound (being so loud you can sing along and never hear your own voice!), the energy of the crowd, the anticipation of waiting for the band to play your favorite song and the elation you feel when they do, Catching a guitar pic or a drum stick, the ability to show your appreciation for both the band and your favorite songs. The chance to hear covers, solos and acoustic versions of songs. The chance to meet your favorite band and get an autograph, photo or just shake their hand and say thanks. A live show is all that and so much more. There's no way something as small as some pre-recorded intros, orchestration or backing vocals is going to lessen the overall experience for me.

 

[saucywench]

Pre-recorded parts in a live set sometimes bothers me, but for the most part I don't really mind it. Plus, if you think about it, it puts extra pressure on the band to stay in perfect time with the recording - so I can respect that ... of course, bands at this level shouldn't have that much trouble with that . As far as Epica goes, I didn't care at all. Everyone on stage was giving it their all, and I loved it.

Just for the record, the band doesn't have to stay in perfect time with the recording- the usual way they do it is to pipe the original track into the drummer's ear, so he can play in perfect time with the rest of the band following- leaving the band with very little freedom.

That being said, from what I could see of Epica, they didn't do this- it looked like the keyboardist was counting in the drummer. If so, kudos to the drummer, because he must have a crazily-perfect internal metronome.

 

[Exploding Ned]

Holy geez too many whiners on this thread. Sorry, I'm fine with taped parts to a live song. I have played live many times myself and only a few times used taped spoken parts, only because they were slowed down to appear more evil sounding, and there's no way I could speak that low, even after several beers/smokes/whatever. Anyway, all I'm saying is it's difficult for a band to fly here from Europe, very expensive etc., and if they wanna add taped parts let em. Hell, we got to see EPICA for chrissakes, what more could you ask for? And besides, it takes as much effort to put a taped part into the performance as it does to bring a singer etc. live, it is just more economical. Plus, believe it or not, it isn't easy to sync the band to the tape.

 

[acidbasement]

Hey Ned, I totally respect the skill involved in syncing a band to a recording. I'm a drummer, and the first time I had to do this it threw me for a big loop. My opinion on this matter is based entirely on the fact that, in my experience onstage (>200 concerts under my belt) and off, the connection between the audience and the band is diminished because a) the band is restricted by and must pay a lot of attention to the electronic sequence, reducing their ability to play off each other and the audience in the heat of the moment, and b) the audience tends to get more into the music if they have a 2-way visual connection with the performers - ALL the performers, not only the few who are playing in real time. Clearly not everyone agrees with this, but also clearly I'm not alone in this belief, and it's obvious that people in my camp are generally cooler.

 

[Pellaz]

I agree...I don't have a problem with it as long as *most* of what we're hearing is being performed live, and no one on-stage is faking anything we're hearing (ie. lip-syncing).

...or, say, a keyboard solo.........


(Relax, folks, this is history, several years ago, and long-buried.)