kemper into a babyface

[fdsaevad]

for direct input.

i go main outs on kemper into the line-ins on the babyface? (i don't want to go spdif because i assume then it's using the kemper converters and it's maxed at 44.1 khz, and the rme converters are well look upon, should prob use those).

how would i go hooking up a dry signal to record at the same time? the kemper direct output/send into the babyface hi-z?

 

[deLuther]

Additional AD/DA conversion is always inferior, still there is kemper AD conversion plus it`s DA conversion on top of babyface AD...
In case of spdif there is only kemper AD conversion.

 

[fdsaevad]

... so you're saying the kemper converts it to digital to modify the sound, then converts it back to analog to send to the interface (or poweramp)... and then the interface converts it to digital again

i get it. so basically i don't need a fancy interface, it's just going to fuck up the sound more - ... don't even need an interface at all.

what's the reasoning behind being limited to 44.1khz - that our punishment for finally killing analog; we have to have its best digital representation in the lowest sample rate possible, or what.

basically, sell the babyface, use cash for quick drinking binge, if i survive, spend winter writing next album

 

[deLuther]

For me 44.1k is far more convinient than 48k, because of compartibility with main final format and existing libraries, 48k (as on Axe FX) is not far from 44.1k, but require resampling and some place. 96k seems too heavy for standalone DSP devices, at least for now. Torpedos have 96k processing... but custom impulses can be loaded only as 24/48.

It seems that you need some kind of interface to be able to record something, not integrated one

 

[B36arin]

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

44.1 kHz is plenty for a guitar amp signal, don't worry about it. It's only a problem if you're running sessions that are 44.1k+, and I really don't see the point in that for metal mixes.

Also, doesn't the Babyface have optical SPDIF ports? That'd mean you'd have to get an optical to coaxial SPDIF converter(or two if you want I/O) which is a bit of a hassle. It's the reason I didn't buy a Babyface. But it's the most "correct" way of hooking up a Kemper, you can also do reamping with zero signal loss via SPDIF.

 

[fdsaevad]

goddamn, that is a hassle.

... why would it be a problem in seesions that are 44.1k+? was thinking of doing 48

 

[Mago]

If you import 48 khz files into a 44.1khz session without converting they won't play at the correct speed and pitch.
If you hook up the kemper via spdif and the sample rate of your interface and the kemper don't match it's trouble too, as well as when the master clock isn't set right.

so you're not aware of when D/A and A/D happens, you don't know why 48 is a problem in 44.1 sessions BUT you're sure that 48 is that much better than 44.1?
huh. Numbers isn't everything you know...

and yeah, you can send a direct output from the kemper to your interface, hi z input I think, since its ment to be sent to the input of the guitaramp normally.

 

[fdsaevad]

... i'm going to go main outs into the babyface analog ins, and use the direct output/send into a analog rca/optical spdif converter into the babyface spdif for the dry signal. that way i don't have to worry about it, i appreciate all the feedback/comments

 

[deLuther]

Just crazy setup with unneeded additional DA/AD conversion. Yes, it will be 48k, but with less quality than direct spdif 44.1k from kemper, also more noise. If you need "quality 48k", than record via spdif from kemper and resample to 48k with good resampling algorithm.

 

[Megin]

No one will hear any difference if it was recorded 44.1 or 48 so why even bother?

 

[deLuther]

Or difference can be in favor of native 44.1k, if final mix in 48k will be resampled to final (standard for the current moment) 44.1k
I.e. 44.1k undergo additional DA/AD conversion to 48k (resampling by DA/AD), libraries (if used) also resampled to 48k (additional burden on CPU), and final resamplig to 44.1k... if end format not for DVD etc.

96k have some sense, but 48k too close to 44.1k.

 

[Max Morton]

In addition to that, while mixing in 48 k and especially in 88 or 96 k, you're kinda fooling yourself. Everything's sounding more silky, more clear and smooth, but it does not represent the way mix is going to sound when downsampled to 44 k.

So, a good 44k all the way. At least until the world switches to super-duper lossless hirez audio. Not sure it's gonna happen though, so I'd rather save some disc space, processing power and time.

 

[deLuther]

Still mixing at 96k and downsampling final result to 44k can sometimes be better.
But it have more sense when all material recorded from live source, not from digital modelers etc.
I`m tried to check recorded DIs at 96k with later downsampling to 44k against direct 44k with reamping.
With one converter (pre-top ADC) there was noticable difference in favour of 96k, but with other (top ADC) difference was less significant.
Better to try every variant yourself and check for pros and cons...

 

[Mago]

^in that case 88 would be even better than 96 imo, since 88.2 to 44.1 is an even conversion with the sample points beeing taken at the right spots already, just downsizing on the amount of them.

 

[deLuther]

Yes, correct, 96k like SR for all future possibilities
Just have such experiment, that`s all.

 

[Enghell]

I've ordered a Behringer (yes, a Behringer) Ultramatch Pro SRC 2496 for converting coax to optical S/PDIF from my Kemper to my Babyface to be able to reamp without any loss (it can be used as 2 extra A/D-D/A converters for the Babyface too). Won't get it until Monday (damn holidays) so haven't tried it yet, but read that others have had good experiences with the same set up (KPA-Ultramatch-Babyface). I also have a TC Electronic multieffect with coax, so I'm gonna try that one too when I can connect it digitally to the Babyface, so yet another use for me.

 

[fdsaevad]

I appreciate all the responses. With respect to sample rate, you kids say 44.1, I'll go 44.1, no biggie. I recorded for 10 years through a $40 4 channel beringer mic pre mixer. Regardless the sample rate,my 3g in 2 pieces of hardware should prove to be an improvement. The reason im going w my fore mentioned setup is because somebody else w the same set up said recording through the spdif sounds deader and duller, plus this gearslut sounds like he knows what he's talking about:


The Kemper's "Direct Out" is a mono send that is the original guitar signal. It's for sending to a reference amp or can be used to feed the Kemper's "Return Input" to set up an effects loop. It's effectively just a buffered, unbalanced direct version of the input, and turns the Kemper into a very expensive DI input. It's the best source for a "dry " signal.

For digitizing the Kemper's amp simulated outputs with the RME Babyface, the XLR Main Outputs should result in the best (most accurate with no compromise of S/N ratio) signal. They are balanced, unlike the Direct and Monitor TS outs which are unbalanced. The Kemper's rated internal dynamic range (S/N+distortion) = 108 dB.

The RME uses excellent converters and analog input circuitry (probably better then the converter ahead of the Kemper's fixed 44.1/24bit S/PDIF output). The Babyface has a ADC dynamic range of 115dB and an input dynamic range through the XLR's of 111dB (unweighted). Those are exceptional specs. Also using the Babyface allows use of the RME as a master clock and, of course, allows use of any sampling rate from 32k to 192k if desired. Certainly, the analog connection has much more flexibility.

Of course, it's easy to connect the Kemper to the Babyface using both the S/PDIF digital feed with a RCA digital to optical converter and the XLR Main outputs and record it both ways (remember to use the Kemper as the master clock if using the S/PDIF to feed the Babyface). You can then compare both connection methods directly. Remember, the Babyface has no RCA S/PDIF input, and the Kemper has no optical output, so the Kemper cannot be connected directly. You must use a RCA/Toslink format converter.

I suspect you won't hear any significant differences if levels are matched and you're recording only at 44.1k.

If you want to record both the Kemper's stereo processed outputs AND your direct output simultaneously (since the Babyface has only (2) analog input channels) you could add a small analog to S/PDIF optical output converter to feed the Babyface S/PDIF optical input with your direct ("dry") signal. An unbalanced RCA input converter will work fine here since the Kemper Direct TS output is unbalanced anyway. I'd use a TS plug to RCA "Y"cable to feed the Direct output to both of the converter's RCA analog inputs to allow recording a mono signal on both S/PDIF channels.

 

[Line666]

plus this gearslut sounds like he knows what he's talking about:

There's your issue

In all seriousness though, even from a technical perspective one level of a/d conversion is preferential to three, you're essentially talking about this being your recorded path for reamping the DI later -

Babyface DI in (analogue signal) > converted to digital > Babyface line out > converted back to analogue > Kemper In > converted back to digital > Kemper Out > converted back to analogue > Babyface In > converted back to digital again.

Now that's three levels of potential signal degredation so regardless of the higher fidelity input on the babyface you are much more likely to not gain anything from doing things this way. Remember the kemper is a digital unit so it pretty much works on well guided approximation anyway - even when the signal into it is analogue.

With spdif instead:

Kemper In (analogue signal) > converted to digital > Babyface (nothing changed)

In real terms you are unlikely to ever hear the difference between these anyway but the spdif method is a hell of a lot more convenient if you can live with 44.1k (and believe me - that's not a bad thing either - despite the gearslutz rhetoric plenty of multi-platinum records have been recorded purely in 44.1k)

 

[deLuther]

If you need just very expensive DI, than, maybe, just dedicated DI will do work without kemper at all?

Babyface has just good ADC (AKM ak5385), not excellent, excellent converters can have -120 db SNR or more.

 

[fdsaevad]

If you need just very expensive DI, than, maybe, just dedicated DI will do work without kemper at all?

Babyface has just good ADC (AKM ak5385), not excellent, excellent converters can have -120 db SNR or more.

man, i'm just a regular guy


.... i'll just pick up the one converter to run the dry direct out/send with the main outs, to start the album, and then at some point i'll pick up a coax/opt spdif converter to A/B the sound using both outputs. an extra $150... i have a feeling kemper had to decide where to cut corners on the unit to come in 20 percent cheaper than the axe... the lesson learned here is to pick an interface directly compatible to the kemper

another feeling i have is that kemper would've focused the quality of the hardware towards all outputs except the spdif, given the majority of users will not be using it for direct input, thus the reason why its reported the spdif sound is a little more flat. i'm willing to bet the extra conversions needed coming out of the higher quality hardware associated with the main outs will not deteriorate the sound to the point where the main outs will sound worse than the spdif, but i'll up some A/B for you kids in a couple of days once i set this all up (just have to slug 20k lbs of furniture first)