kick panning and drummer vs. listener perspective.

[EtherForBreakfast]

2 questions about drum mixing.

#1 is, do any of you ever slightly/tightly pan kicks? Say left kick at 8% left, right kick at 8% right, or are they always dead center (the direct mics). Obviously the OH and room mics will pick up the kick, but i prefer to have no kick bleed into those mics...

#2 is pretty broad but... there are 2 ways to present drums.. drummer perspective, or audience/listener perspective....

discuss.....

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

I always felt drummer perspective was more natural to listen to because I occasionally play drums, but I think most people like listener...?

 

[Lopes]

I don't like panning kicks at all, if you listen in headphones it can be very distracting/annoying/disorienting, especially during really fast sections when you get that major ping pong sound. It can be cool as an effect, but I don't like it as a "standard" sound.

Personally, when it comes to mixing drums I choose to mix from the audience perspective because it just makes more sense to me to do so because when I listen to a band, I'm not listening from the drummer's perspective.


Besides, if you were to mix from most drummer's perspectives it would sound like nothing but out of time playing, trash can cymbals, and not much else.

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

lopes.. heheehh!!!!

on point.

=)

 

[axeman720]

i never pan kicks. I also really like drummers perspective for two main reasons. First it just seems right to me...its just what i want to hear, and two i always bring up my drum channels from left to right around the kit from drummers perspective and its easier for me to pan that way since the channels are pretty much in that order anyway. I seem to notice alot of the guys in europe doing audience and quite a few of us americans doing drummer perspective. Def no right or wrong thing to do here.

 

[Ermz]

I don't pan kicks and I also preffer drummer's perspective. Works better when you're air-drumming along to the track.

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

I don't pan kicks and I also preffer drummer's perspective. Works better when you're air-drumming along to the track.

Holy shit, THAT'S why I like it, and it took you saying that for me to realize it.

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

This is the main reason I asked. I have experimented with light panning of kicks and it never sounds good.. glad to see the same thoughts.

As for drummer vs. listener perspective.... this is a big can of worms.

Since the OH mics would literally need to be stereo flipped to conform, I guess my discrepancy is with the direct mics.

mostly with hats and snare... drummer wise, hat is about 15% out, and snare is about 10% out.. on the LEFT..... but listener its in reverse...

same holds true for the floor and rack toms.

good stuff so far.. thanks.

It does pose a dilemma in that if you mix with drummer in mind, but the rest of the band from an observer view....

No one is capable of hearing a drummer from his throne, and the rest of the band from in front of stage.... if you get what I'm talking about.

 

[Ermz]

Does it really matter though? Are you trying to replicate the live environment on a studio recording? I'm not. I aim toward whatever provides the listener with the best experience, regardless of how impossible it may be to cross those perspectives over in a 'real-life' situation.

 

[Fredrik-Ablaze]

I don't want to be a dick here but; what about left handed drummers?

 

[Thornspawn]

the best solution would be for the drummers to turn their kit and backs away from the rest of the band while they play Then we wouldn't have the perspective dillema anymore.

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

Fred - hehehe.

I'm not a drummer.. but when I hear a gene hoglan.. or a dave lombardo.. or a mike portnoy track.. i get diff vibes from all of them.

i guess i should mention that my fave drums are off of carcass heartwork, which is most def drummer perspective.

when i listen to the drums on reign in blood.. that entire fucking thing sounds mono to me....

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

smart asses... i'd hope that you know what i mean when i talk about how to stereo flip drums..........

its one or the other.

 

[cobrahead1030]

i've always like the kick and snare panned center, and the toms with a big fat stereo setup...so you really feel em going across the toms in the fills, same with the overheads (not sure which perspective that is?)

 

[EtherForBreakfast]

well.. seeing as how my "drum kit" is DFHS.. and not any studio with a real drum guy.. yes. i like the toms as you do, cobra.

if you listen to a ton of successive back to back things, you will hear rides in every which way but loose.. even on godless.. vans ride is nearly hard left...

since i dont play drums, i am trying to understand how to approach mixing them and panning them without it sounding totally fucking alien.

and a large part of that has to do with audience vs. drummer.

 

[black sugar]

There's certainly no wrong or right, but I definitely prefer the drummer's perspective. I think Moonlapse nailed it with the air drumming. I feel more involved with the drumming that way.

Now for the panning, I try to keep kick and snare up the middle, but it really depends on how it's captured in the overhead image.

It takes a little fuckery to get the kick and snare in the "middle" of the overheads. Check out this link for a single kick example:

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/placement.htm

Dig those crazy dildo mics!

 

[Ermz]

I tend to center the overheads around the snare, not the kick. I tend to filter the kick out of the overheads as much as possible so I see it as more or less irrelevant. I think the snare sound in overheads is somewhat important in giving it more life, so I see it as more important.

Btw SAE is like the arch enemy of my college . I've never really thought about setting up the overheads diagonally like they did there. Don't think I've ever seen it done before.

 

[black sugar]

I tend to center the overheads around the snare, not the kick. I tend to filter the kick out of the overheads as much as possible so I see it as more or less irrelevant. I think the snare sound in overheads is somewhat important in giving it more life, so I see it as more important.

Btw SAE is like the arch enemy of my college . I've never really thought about setting up the overheads diagonally like they did there. Don't think I've ever seen it done before.

Yeah, I'll h/p the overheads and that gets rid of most of the kick for sure. The snare is so much more obvious when it's off center.

But the true nemesis of all drum recording is the fucking hi-hat. If you're aiming the overheads straight down, one advantage of the "SAE method" is that it keeps the (drummer's) left overhead farther away from the hat.

Not sure that I'd necessarily recommend it over any other method by default, but it's a good option with the right kit setup.

 

[Andy Sneap]

i find it real difficult to mix drummer perspective, sounds wrong to me. Obviously, if thats what the drummer really wants I'll just flip it at the end of the mix.

 

[~BURNY~]

Perspective. I think it's one of the few things/tricks that let you make the drummer believe that he's involved in the recording/mixing process. Ask the drummer...
Always let the musicians think that they have control.