Kiss my ass Joey Tempest...

[ashaman7122]

at least Joey didn't call us cunts.

Best post of this thread...I laughed out loud!

Two thumbs up!

Rock on!

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I would note that being called a young country is off the mark. We actually have the oldest consistent government in the world next to the British. The rest of Europe only just recently became democratic, having lived under monarchies for the previous hundreds of years. It would seem that we matured well before they did. The America of the 21st century can find much common ground with the America of 1776. The spirit is still the same. What relation to 18th century Europe do modern Europeans have? None that I can see. They are a completely modern culture that just sprang up out of the ashes of WWII, mainly as an imitation of American and British culture. They are young societies, not us.

Ahhh, so being a democracy instead of a monarchy is a sign of maturity? Thanks for the history lesson. I'm sorry that I live in such a young society as Denmark where we only have had monarchs throughout the last 1000 years. We really are far behind you in every way possible. You're so right, that it makes me ashamed of being Danish.

c.

 

[adaher]

Denmark is democratic, despite the presence of a figurehead monarch. But you knew that.

I'm just saying that this whole concept of America as "immature" compared to the "mature, adult" Europeans is fallacious. America is not a young country. We've been the way we are essentially since 1789. Same Constitution, same Bill of Rights, same concepts of the rights of man. Concepts which weren't adopted outside of Britain until much later. In most cases, not until the 20th century.

Can anyone seriously suggest that the Europe of the first half of the 20th century was a more mature entity than the US? I don't think anyone can seriously make that case. So that leaves one with having to prove that all of a sudden, since 1945, Europe has become more mature than the US. Which wouldn't help, because it would already contradict the popular European belief that Europe's age makes it more mature.

Another uncomfortable question that Europeans holding this belief should ask themselves, is if we are immature compared to Europe, are not Europeans immature compared to Africa and Asia?

The unseriousness of this idea just gets exposed the more one thinks about it.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Denmark is democratic, despite the presence of a figurehead monarch. But you knew that..

Why the word "despite"? Does the fact that a country has a monarchy, make it less democratic or even less mature?

I'm just saying that this whole concept of America as "immature" compared to the "mature, adult" Europeans is fallacious. America is not a young country. We've been the way we are essentially since 1789. Same Constitution, same Bill of Rights, same concepts of the rights of man. Concepts which weren't adopted outside of Britain until much later. In most cases, not until the 20th century.

Can anyone seriously suggest that the Europe of the first half of the 20th century was a more mature entity than the US? I don't think anyone can seriously make that case. So that leaves one with having to prove that all of a sudden, since 1945, Europe has become more mature than the US. Which wouldn't help, because it would already contradict the popular European belief that Europe's age makes it more mature.

Another uncomfortable question that Europeans holding this belief should ask themselves, is if we are immature compared to Europe, are not Europeans immature compared to Africa and Asia?

The unseriousness of this idea just gets exposed the more one thinks about it.

I don't get this at all ... there's no need to say that one country is more mature than another ... based on WHAT? Technology, development of democracy, politics, ethic values? Anyway, it's just wrong, and totally ridiculous to try to say "my country is better than yours" ... it's kind of like saying that my Dad can beat your Dad, or that my Mom sucks better cock than your sister.

The fact is that you're proud of your country (to a certain extent), and so am I of my country (to a certain extent). The moment we cross the line from just stating that, and to wholeheartedly defending it while degrading other countries/cultures, is the moment we go from passionate to nationalistic idiots.

c.

 

[adaher]

Why the word "despite"? Does the fact that a country has a monarchy, make it less democratic or even less mature?


Please don't take it personally. I have nothing against Constitutional Monarchies. What counts is the substance of the people's relation to the state. Denmark is a state that respects the human rights of its citizens and allows them the primary say in how their government functions.

don't get this at all ... there's no need to say that one country is more mature than another ... based on WHAT?

That was kinda my point, since Joey Tempest intimated that we were immature due to the age of our country. And I decided to expound on the idea because it's a common European conceit.

The fact is that you're proud of your country (to a certain extent), and so am I of my country (to a certain extent). The moment we cross the line from just stating that, and to wholeheartedly defending it while degrading other countries/cultures, is the moment we go from passionate to nationalistic idiots.



Of course. I only denigrated Europe as much as I had to to expose the falseness of the conceit. Europeans insist they are more mature than America, so I had to show that there is great reason to question that. America's evolution into a democracy before Europe was one example of America being more mature than Europe. There are other examples of Europe being more mature than America. "Maturity" is rather hard to define, it's about as useful as saying that one country is "better" than another.

But this widely held belief in Europe's maturity due to its age just had to be punctured. Age doesn't mean diddly, among people or nations.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

don't get this at all ... there's no need to say that one country is more mature than another ... based on WHAT? [/B]

That was kinda my point, since Joey Tempest intimated that we were immature due to the age of our country. And I decided to expound on the idea because it's a common European conceit. ...... Europeans insist they are more mature than America, so I had to show that there is great reason to question that.

Do you really think so? The European's I see everyday here don't "insist" on Europe being more mature than America. I think it's some kind of "paranoia" (don't worry, I don't mean it in a bad way, haha) from your side, that makes you believe we all think that way over here.

c.

 

[adaher]

I've just heard it so much, I believed it was a common European belief. Well, it's probably common, but maybe not held by the majority? I don't know. I just know I hear it a lot and hearing one of my heroes(Joey Tempest) say it irritated me. I would have expected him to know better.

 

[ashaman7122]

You know...(sigh)...

I'm really not interested in waxing politically, nor do I hold any elitist American ideals.

You would think that I would realize what a stand-off provoking hot-button I'd be pushing by posting my original comments, but no...

My whole point is that Joey, after composing an interesting and complimentary tour diary excerpt, felt the need to wrap it up with a socio-political opinion on our fair nation. In my opinion, that makes him a little assholish!

I was told to lighten up at some point in this post, which is pretty funny if you know me. Let's end the political fingerpointing right now before Glenn decides he's had enough.

Rock on!

 

[Yngvai X]

lol, American's really hate *anyone* saying *anything* that could be taken as bad about America, don't they? I honestly think the way this country makes people grow up that they really want us to believe that there is abosolutely nothing wrong...no scratch that, that this is THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN....THE WOOOOORLD. I don't really blame most Americans for tattooing the stars and stripes on their dicks and waving it about proudly, its our society that does it to us. Its the media, its the government.

Claus, Im curious to know how "patriotic" people are in Denmark, because my european friends (from Germany, Sweden, and Finland) tell me that Europe is no way hear as full of patriotism or nationalism the way the US is. Actually one of my German friends told me that people who come across as *too* patriotic in Germany are looked at as nazis.

 

[thedelicateflower]

...i remember him saying once that he didn't care for american women....i had always liked their music, but that comment bites....i have no respect for him...

 

[Dark One]

Gee, what a shock that the discussion has quickly turned into more endless politcal bickering. It's so unproductive. "Joey Tempest can kiss my ass!!!", "Joey Tempest is right!!!". WAH, WAH, WAH, WAH!!!

The non-stop bickering among each other over this is endless and pointless. You're not going to change anyone's political views.

 

[AMBR]

It's called a debate and some people find it enjoyable. Can't be any worse than trolling with all it's pointless posturing and name calling.

edit: But I'm done now and should go back to being productive on the job; writing for a newspaper I obviously must not read.

 

[ashaman7122]

Gee, what a shock that the discussion has quickly turned into more endless politcal bickering. It's so unproductive. "Joey Tempest can kiss my ass!!!", "Joey Tempest is right!!!". WAH, WAH, WAH, WAH!!!

The non-stop bickering among each other over this is endless and pointless. You're not going to change anyone's political views.

Funny...I thought I just addressed that...

As far as being unproductive...if I was worried about being productive, I wouldn't be spending my day hanging out in the forum...

So who's the unproductive one now?

Rock on!

 

[Kenneth R.]

i think one thing that changes people's minds about these topics is seeing beyond borders. the things said by those who've never left their own states, let alone the country, astound me by their ignorance.

edit: and for you maturity people, just so you know, the cultures of asia and central america, followed by europe, developed the mathematics for most of the crap you don't even think about every day. asian and european philosophy predated anything "american" and the concept of democracy isn't american either (but you all knew that.)

not to mention that the only real americans are the native americans we like to misname "indians". the rest of you (and myself) are from one of the other 5 continents with humans on them.

 

[Met-Al]

...in perfect harmony...

Why can't we all just have a Coke and crank out some more tunes?


Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al

 

[Kenneth R.]

i'm already on that.

 

[mtlheart]

I'm very glad to see you trying to look at this closely, adaher. but I don't quite get your point. More facts, please? I've seen a lot more negotiation on the part of the Europeans. A lot can be accomplished that way. A lesson, cattle-riders like Bush need to learn. A strong union with the European Nation and the US will accomplish more than the Texan kick-ass politics he's employing. Can anyone say, "D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y?"

Well... here's a little perspective from someone who isn't from either the US or Europe.
Diplomacy? Would you please give some examples of where diplomacy stopped the wholesale slaughter of innocents? When did diplomacy remove ruthless tyrants, who start wars with their neighbors and exterminate their populations?
While the world negotiates with Iran to diplomatically end their nuclear program, the Iranians nod and keep developing it. Diplomacy has it's place. It's great for settling disputes between civilized nations not with fanatics or tyrants. For example It can resolve trade and fishing rights disputes, or create new.

But in order for diplomacy to work all parties involved have to have a common goal and values. It requires that those parties intend to actually uphold their agreements. Walking away from the table with papers signed by one who intends not to abide by the contract accomplishes nothing.
History demonstrates this time and time again. The American Indians who were slaughtered for the gold found on land the US government said was their territory by "treaty." The millions who died worldwide in WWII because the Germans broke the demilitarization accord post WWI. The hundreds of millions of people who were enslaved to the Soviet machine, because Stalin had no intent to abide by the accords of Yalta. Diplomacy does not work with fanatics or tyrants.
The US president Teddy Roosevelt said "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." Ronald Reagan said "Trust, but verify." Wise words from wise men, who understood what it takes to deal with tyrants.

As for America on a whole...
No country has given so much so freely to the world as have the Americans. When disaters strike, who is the first to respond with money, food, relief workers, and medical aide? Which other country has saved Europe from itself in TWO world wars? Then they had to defend Europe against the Soviets for 40 years! Which country invests so much to rebuild another country it has defeated in war, be it Japan, Germany, or Iraq? Which other country or group of countries contributes so much to financial assistance and developement of the Third World?

And yet Europe criticizes the US, lead by France who allowed catastrophe to develop on its boarders twice, and are letting it fester in its population today. Criticized by the French who's troops murder civilians in Ivory Coast, as the world says nothing. Heh. Brilliant.

For those of you who so easily forget why America may be having a "tantrum"...watch and remember.

 

[jaimek]

Now...not knowing shit about Sweden...do I comment on the snow and bleakness and utter (supposed) desolation that their country has to offer. No!...cuz...what the fuck do I know?

Not knowing what the fuck you're talking about doesn't stop you from talking smack about Joey, though. He used to LIVE in the US for several years; furthermore, not being a native does not disqualify one from having an opinion. If it is, then everyone in this country can shut up about France, Germany, and England.

That being said, what exactly was wrong with his comment? America IS a very young country; we've only had civilization on scale with the rest of the world for about four hundred years, when everyone else has got millennia under their respective belts. There's nothing disparaging in what he says; it's a truthful observation made with affection.

I suggest you remove your head from your ass and not jump to ignorant conclusions.

 

[Pellaz]

Well... here's a little perspective from someone who isn't from either the US or Europe.
........As for America on a whole...
No country has given so much so freely to the world as have the Americans. When disaters strike, who is the first to respond with money, food, relief workers, and medical aide? Which other country has saved Europe from itself in TWO world wars? Then they had to defend Europe against the Soviets for 40 years! Which country invests so much to rebuild another country it has defeated in war, be it Japan, Germany, or Iraq? Which other country or group of countries contributes so much to financial assistance and developement of the Third World?
......
For those of you who so easily forget why America may be having a "tantrum"...watch and remember.

Brilliant. PP Forum Post of the Week nominee.




BTW, one of the reasons why Europeans are so "down" on America, and particularly down on GW Bush, is the astonishingly prevalent bias in their news-media. I was floored by it while I was over in the UK.

 

[glasscastle]

Joey Tempest....you people have got to be kidding....who gives a rats ass what he thinks about anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!