Learning how to think

[Norsemaiden]

"Thinking has to be learned in the way that dancing has to be learned" Nietzsche.

Do you consider this true? How common is it for people to be able to "think"? What circumstances in your life helped you to learn how to "think" - if any?

 

[Freanan]

I consider it true in some ways.
There are quite different ways to think and speak and look at the world which are usefull for different purposes.
Like scientific thought, procedural programming thought, thought that is usefull when planning complex things, philosophical critical thought etc...
Mostly these ways to think have to be learnt because they do not come naturally.

 

[cryosteel]

We have those who favor revealing the world only as they wish it to be, which is to say, an inner world we all cannot share, and those who favor revealing the world as best they see it, the world we all must share, like it or no.

 

[Norsemaiden]

It is the ability to think critically about things that is important, I'd say - to apply ideas to life in a meaningful way.
This would be the case be it scientific thinking, or philosophical or whatever.

It is well known that people can read many books yet still lack the ability to apply the ideas they have read about. This comes down to limitations in their ability to think - perhaps especially in a creative sense.

I am sure that if a child has many debates and deep discussions with members of their family it greatly helps their ability to think critically. This kind of thinking requires that one does not assume anything.

The majority of people neither wish to use their minds in such a way nor have the ability to. This can only lead them to be serfs, basically.

 

[hibernal_dream]

It's also very difficult, probably more so, to learn how to stop thinking once you've mastered it.

 

[Justin S.]

^lol

funny, regardless if it's a joke or not (I hope it is).

 

[Seditious]

"Thinking has to be learned in the way that dancing has to be learned" Nietzsche.

Do you consider this true?

if you never associate with uneducated people, average people (those with no scholarly interests), etc. you'd find it remarkable just how true this is (so long as you take for granted he's talking about logical/proper/unbiased/critical/intelligent thinking, call it what you will, not just 'thinking' which obviously everyone can do by a certain age. as Robert Anton Wilson said, 'think how dumb the average guy is, mathematically---by definition---half of them are even dumber'.

What circumstances in your life helped you to learn how to "think" - if any?

mostly just learning about argument, logical fallacies, critical thinking, scientific standards for testing hypotheses, that sort of stuff... the kind of shit they never bothered to teach me in high school.

 

[Seditious]

It is the ability to think critically about things that is important, I'd say - to apply ideas to life in a meaningful way.
This would be the case be it scientific thinking, or philosophical or whatever.

amen.
on that I just want to share a couple quotes from Nietzsche's Antichrist for anyone who hasn't read it.

"The most valuable intuitions are the last to be attained; the most valuable of all are those which determine methods. All the methods, all the principles of the scientific spirit of today, were the targets for thousands of years of the most profound contemptd." -Section 13

"Every essential to the beginning of the work was ready;--and the most essential, it cannot be said too often, are methods, and also the most difficult to develop, and the longest opposed by habit and laziness." - Section 59

It is well known that people can read many books yet still lack the ability to apply the ideas they have read about. This comes down to limitations in their ability to think - perhaps especially in a creative sense.

agreed. here I think it's good to use a word other than just 'think', like 'compare' or 'examine' or 'contextualize' or 'critique', or any other process of organizing a thought.

I am sure that if a child has many debates and deep discussions with members of their family it greatly helps their ability to think critically. This kind of thinking requires that one does not assume anything.

yea, even just around the dinner table about the day's news when they're a bit older...

The majority of people neither wish to use their minds in such a way nor have the ability to. This can only lead them to be serfs, basically.

Yea, that's interesting. Reflecting on my own life, it was really only after I learned how to begin a basic reasoning/analysing process that I actually began to enjoy 'using my mind' as it were.

 

[Norsemaiden]

'think how dumb the average guy is, mathematically---by definition---half of them are even dumber'

Good as a joke as this is, I hope people realise (as Seditious surely does) that it doesn't really work that way. The majority can have an average IQ.

 

[Seditious]

Good as a joke as this is, I hope people realise (as Seditious surely does) that it doesn't really work that way. The majority can have an average IQ.

plenty of people with an average IQ have stupid beliefs, you don't have to have the IQ of a 5 year old to be deceived by a magician's illusion, or buy into Christianity or Creationism, you just have to be sufficiently ignorant about certain things... that's what I take 'stupid' to be referring to here (ruled by emotion, ignorant, credulous, etc.), not a literal developmental mental impairment of some kind.

in other words, I think most people have the capacity to not believe such stupid things as they do, but they haven't yet had that unlocked (such as by learning how to think properly). which means we'd [me and R.A Wilson) be calling stupid people who believe stupid things, not people who are 'retarded' or 'imbeciles' or some sort of technical definition of 'stupid' pertaining to their mental capacity.

 

[Norsemaiden]

plenty of people with an average IQ have stupid beliefs, you don't have to have the IQ of a 5 year old to be deceived by a magician's illusion, or buy into Christianity or Creationism, you just have to be sufficiently ignorant about certain things... that's what I take 'stupid' to be referring to here (ruled by emotion, ignorant, credulous, etc.), not a literal developmental mental impairment of some kind.

in other words, I think most people have the capacity to not believe such stupid things as they do, but they haven't yet had that unlocked (such as by learning how to think properly). which means we'd [me and R.A Wilson) be calling stupid people who believe stupid things, not people who are 'retarded' or 'imbeciles' or some sort of technical definition of 'stupid' pertaining to their mental capacity.

The thing is though - while I agree people who believe stupid things don't have to believe them - I wouldn't say it's particularly down to them not learning to think properly. In many cases it is, but in most cases I would say that people adopt the beliefs they are indoctrinated with and so it is necessary for them to be indoctrinated with sensible ideas rather than silly or harmful ones. It is unfortunate that the masses are like that, and I doubt there has ever been a time or a society which wasn't full of those who have to be instructed in such ways, although they have the illusion of being in control of their own minds.

This is a human condition, since wild animals obey only the laws of Nature and don't have any alternative views on life or external manipulations thrust upon them. As soon as humans started to formulate explanations of the most basic phenomena in life, some amongst them professed to understand more than others; the others followed their lead - and so religion and culture grew. These man-made ideas pervade our consciousnesses, and most never question them.

 

[Seditious]

In many cases it is, but in most cases I would say that people adopt the beliefs they are indoctrinated with and so it is necessary for them to be indoctrinated with sensible ideas rather than silly or harmful ones.

yikes. the problem there is that your idea of helpful or good or what have you may be very different from other peoples'... this is what Mill was frightened of with compulsory education.

Fuck the last thing I want is a world of house-trained vegans or secular humanists, I would much rather people capable of seeing what flawed concepts these too are... what preferable but erroneous philosophies they contain.

it may well be in our personal interests to brainwash people into peace and love bullshit, but that is not a world I would hope we maintain... I would hope we could get past our most absurd dangerous ideas, and not need to be bound any longer by lies such as those with which we ween the culture off the greater evil, otherwise we're just replacing a tyrant in the open with tyrant in disguise, and you know whose reign will be longer.

 

[Blowtus]

I believe learning to think effectively is of great importance, probably the most important thing anyone can learn. I feel that it probably has more impact on life than IQ, but that's just a feeling
It concerns me to see how little heed is paid to this throughout most parenting and schooling. I honestly believe, silly as it may sound, that having been blessed with a self righteous desire and ability to blither crap on internet forums since my teenage years, and dealing with the corresponding beat downs, has honed my thought better than any other endeavours I've been involved in. I have not tried 'proper' tertiary education though, going to see what I think of that next year

 

[Nile577]

To “apply,” to “analyse,” to compartmentalise (“scientific” vs. “philosophical” thought), to speak of "mastering" or "learning" thinking is to obscure thoughtfulness altogether.


If we wish the violence of "modern thought" to give way, then gently, and without attempting diagnosis, we might - as a friend once put it - "tend the coals of thinking," or learn to take holidays.

 

[Blowtus]

If we wish the violence of modern thought to give way, then gently, and without attempting diagnosis, we might - as a friend once put it - "tend the coals of thinking," or learn to take holidays.

I think that is a fantastic point...

 

[waif]

Good as a joke as this is, I hope people realise (as Seditious surely does) that it doesn't really work that way. The majority can have an average IQ.

and that means exactly nothing. By definition, half are smarter than average and half are dumber. He's talking about actual intelligence, not IQ.

I don't think you learn to think. We are taught methods of analyzing things, but if you can't do it, you can't do it. There's a certain ability we are born with, and while teaching can make up for some, it can't totally level the field.

By the way, would you cut it out with all the serfs and genetic superiority crap? It's gotten kind of ridiculous.

 

[Frank the tank]

uh so do you guys think that our minds have more control over us than we have over our own minds?

 

[Blowtus]

what are you?

 

[Silver Incubus]

uh so do you guys think that our minds have more control over us than we have over our own minds?

LOL. You are your mind and your mind is you... I really hope that was a joke.

I guess I would like to ask, what do you think is the best way to keep that thinking as sharp as possible?

 

[Seditious]

LOL. You are your mind and your mind is you... I really hope that was a joke.

I guess I would like to ask, what do you think is the best way to keep that thinking as sharp as possible?

just a small point, perhaps what he's trying to say would make sense if fleshing out the language a little better, 'mind' and 'thinking mind' (I'm no spiritual nutball, but I do like this one way of conveying the idea from freelance spiritualist Eckhart Tolle...)

"When you recognize there is a voice in your head that pretends to be you, and never stops speaking, you're awakening from your unconscious identification with the stream of thinking. . . . Be present as the watcher of your mind -- of your thoughts and emotions as well as your reactions in various situations. . . . Watch the thought, feel the emotion, observe the reaction. Don't make a personal problem out of them. You will then feel something more powerful than any of those things that you observe: the still, observing presence itself behind the content of your mind, the silent watcher."

in other words, you are that which experiences input from the world, you're not just the thinking you do, when you stop thinking about something you're still there. of course you are this 'consciousness', but the capabilities of the 'mind' such as 'thinking' aren't the limit of what we are.

if that makes any sense at all. ('mind'/'consciousness' stuff is a bitch of a thing to have a nice vocabulary of like the body's anatomy)