Let's talk about overheads.

[Pman]

Love my ZCustoms, they record great for me and any drummer who has ever used them. Never had any luck with the KCustoms though and I hate how they sound. I want my cymbals to be bright sounding not dull.


As far as mixing, I cut off around 60, boost 100, 2.5k and 8k, compress about 2:1 works for me.


There was another thread about this and people talked about cutting 2.5k to get rid of the harshness.

i have a customs but theyre not so good for recording
i intend to get some thinner cymbals sooner or later, as i use my z customs for gigging as they dont break so easily.
ive had thinner in the past but they have broken incredibly easily

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

How many people on here who are engineers and not drummers own their own set of cymbols?
Ive worked with bands who have turned up with a 20 year old kit thats not in good condition and have had old and broken cymbols and asked if they can be made to sound like Machinehead

 

[greyskull]

just qa quick query, when you guys filter the ohs, how steep do you go?
I've been trying less and less steep recent;y and found it give the oh's more life.

But then again, this was on a recording for my band, and i made damn sure he didnt hammer the hats.

In dire circumstances, you can cymbal drop.
i.e sample replace the cymbals and mix in with the oh

 

[brandy]

Why no one mentioned PHASE CANCELATION?

When placing Overheads it is so important to have them in phase with hihat/ride AND snare/toms.

Cutting everything below 600hz usualy avoids phase cancelation in the "body" frequencys of snare/kick/toms - but if you only have to roll of below 200hz or so you might end up with a mich fatter overal sound.

I hate those "thin" sounding *modern* overhead-sound. I want a little Body in the attack of the cymbals. I talk about *buushh* and not only *sfiiiishhh*

Other things are mentioned before:

The room is very important - listen to the OHs in solo mode - when they sound "realistic" and "right" to you then everything will work. You just have to do a good mix.

You can use compression to dampen the snare in the OHs, but you can use compression to increase the attack as well. You can manipulate the sustain of the cymbals in some ways.

It is allways more easy with "slow rock" than whith grindcore and stuff like that.

The most important factor is indeed the ballance of the drummer. I will not have big problems with a experienced studio-drummer.

But 9 out of 10 times you have to deal with "the others! LOL

Of course it is important what hat/cymbals you choose - but they have to be played right - so it is not so important for me wich brand/model/light or heavy we use but it is important how the drummer hits them.

Cheap cymbals usually sound thin and cheap on the record...


brandy

 

[Aaron Smith]

My drummer has some pretty thick Z-customs that I wouldn't at all call "soft sounding" cymbals, but he knows how to finesse them just right, so I've never had any issues at all with the OHs not sitting properly. Compression definitely helps to achieve that big thick rock OH sound though, I much prefer it.

 

[Keiffer]

just qa quick query, when you guys filter the ohs, how steep do you go?
I've been trying less and less steep recent;y and found it give the oh's more life.

I don't roll off the OH, I only use Shelving

 

[Keiffer]

Why no one mentioned PHASE CANCELATION?

...

I hate those "thin" sounding *modern* overhead-sound. I want a little Body in the attack of the cymbals. I talk about *buushh* and not only *sfiiiishhh*

When I place the two mics (over the snare and over the shoulder) I measure so both are equi-distant to the snare and equi-distant to the kick. this puts the snare and kick right in the center. then I invert and align the necessary mic(s) with the overheads.

also, I love that very soft shimmery cymbal sound that you may consider "modern"

 

[brandy]

When I place the two mics (over the snare and over the shoulder) I measure so both are equi-distant to the snare and equi-distant to the kick. this puts the snare and kick right in the center. then I invert and align the necessary mic(s) with the overheads.

also, I love that very soft shimmery cymbal sound that you may consider "modern"

Of course everything is up to taste as well as it has to be discussed in the "big picture". A "shimmery" and brilliant cymbal sound is generely what i prefer, too - but in my case i try not to cut too much to avoid a *thin* shimmery sound.

Phase stuff:

Of course that measuring thing is a good idea and i do it the same - but there are a few other things:

To have the snare centered will not guarantee that there are no phase problems - of course the are "symetrical" now. ;-)
Just flip the phase (OH) in a rough mix scenario (where not too much EQ is involved) with OH and snare soloed. You shurely will have a siginficant change in sound. Often you can not tell if in a good or a bad way. Just even more options in a mix wich can drive you mad

Sometims it is not possible to have same distance snare to both OH, i better take care to capture a ballanced image of the COMPLETE drumkit (mostly cymbals) - if the problems are too big in the mix i allways have the option to kill/reduce the snare/toms in the OH a little.

brandy

 

[Keiffer]

To have the snare centered will not guarantee that there are no phase problems - of course the are "symetrical" now. ;-)

the point really wasn't that it's centered although my post probably sounded like it, but centered is good.

the same distance does pretty much ensure minimal phase issues. there's only so much that can be done and the Snare/Kick IMO are the most important

 

[A Toolish Circle]

I think most of the people have touched on all the subjects to make cymbals sound great


1: Great / suitable cymbals that suit the drummer and the band ( reason why andy spends 6 hours getting the cymbal tone right for the chimaira cd )

2: The playing - drummer

3: The right mics ? haven't seen anyone mention this but i still struggle here , sometimes i just get the right balance with small condensers but if they're using trigger pads i use large diaphram condensors and they sounds great !

Positioning is also super important , and the right angle placing makes all the differences and it's so hard to have guidelines when every cymbal sounds so different in every room , it really is a case of using ur ears


4: Phase - as mentioned above !! very important , i still struggly with this as i juggle between close micing the cymbals and sometimes just using 2 overheads.

5: Room / Reverb processing- what oznimbus said : but i find that finding the right convolution reverb can save rooms sounds and can actually make it sound real pleasant

6: Automation ! really helps get the right wash and the right amount of levels for theh right sections so i'll suggest using lots of it

7: Compression


Matt, i think alot of us are in the same boat in the sense that really it's down to luck and the cards dealt to us when it comes to situation like overheads and cymbals , even knowing all this wealth of knowledge it's so hard to get all the combinations mentioned above cos alot of the time it's also down to luck .
As Alan parsons said , alot of the time it's just down to luck and that magical feeling of all the elements working together and he even goes as far to say that for him engineering is 50% luck(what conditions are laid out ) and 50% skill/ damange control

Regards

Roland

 

[Keiffer]

3: The right mics ? haven't seen anyone mention this but i still struggle here , sometimes i just get the right balance with small condensers but if they're using trigger pads i use large diaphram condensors and they sounds great !

What overhead mics is everyone using?

I have used a pair of Josephson e22S for several years now.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

What overhead mics is everyone using?

I have used a pair of Josephson e22S for several years now.

Ive been using my SE electronic SE3s recently and getting good results. Once Ive got the pennys togeather Ill be getting a 2nd 4033 and a second C414 so the 414s will probably end up as the overheads.

 

[Matt Crooks]

What overhead mics is everyone using?

I have used a pair of Josephson e22S for several years now.

I just got a pair of those, and used them on one session as a hat and ride mic, they worked really nice. My OH are KM184s, which work really nice as well. I may switch up the Josepeson and Nuemanns for my drum session next week.

 

[Matt Crooks]

How many people on here who are engineers and not drummers own their own set of cymbols?

I have a full set of cymbals (A cust hats, Z cust hats, K cust hats, crashes, chinas, ride, splash). I also have a full set of Noble and Cooley drums. Having great drums and great cymbals is a big step in the right direction.

 

[Sly]

What do you think of that :
http://sylvain.raulin.free.fr/BUDBATT.wav

http://sylvain.raulin.free.fr/BUDBATT2.wav

Two raw drum extracts from a recording I have done this weekend in the studio. Just a limiter on the master (some compression and EQ when tracking too).

The first one has room mics pretty low in the mics and the second one has room mics compressed to hell (ratio 10:1 ; threshold -15 ; attack 3,5 ; release 4) and more present in the mix.

The OH are high-passed at 450 Hz on the fist, 550 on the second if I remember well.


Here is the raw bass sound coming with those drums : http://sylvain.raulin.free.fr/BUDBASSE.wav

All that stuff is for a stoner rock band.

 

[chadsxe]

I don't roll off the OH, I only use Shelving

Not me. I roll of way the f up there. I find there is just no room in a modern medal mix for most anything below 500 in the oh's

 

[greyskull]

im using royer 121's into a ua 2-610

 

[everybody's x]

wow this thread took off overnight

Lets see, I mostly use a pair of MC012's, although the session before last I got to use a pair of coles 4038's and I really would like a pair of them.

Yes I am a guitarist, (so I guess the implication is that a guitarist can't tell that somebody's 5 inch wide open broken 27 pound B8/trash can lid alloy SUPER DUPER METAL GOD hats washing all over the fucking mix sounds bad?)

I have my own drums and cymbals specifically for recording

I also measure the distance between the oh from the middle of the snare to each mic, I mic drums up in mono and flip phase constantly to check for weird phase issues

I am probably just not metal enough but I don't shelve them at all, I want to solo the OH and they sound like a full nicely balanced drum kit by themselves.

I think I am caught up now.

 

[everybody's x]

SLy, the first track is quite distorted (my mistake I had a crap connection to the board). Second one sounds fantastic

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Oktava MC012's here as well. You can have 'em when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I'm an engineer first, musician second, and probably the world's worst drummer (my IQ is too high.)

However, I've got a 7 piece DW Maple custom for the studio (the last 2 pieces finally came in, I'll post some pics sometime), & a set of Zildijan "A" brilliants for cymbals. As I recall, these were used on the Black Album. Personally, they're one of my favourite cymbals to record.

-0z-