Libertarianism
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cookiecutter
Proceed to Ultraslamming
Yeah. Quite a few leading questions on that test too. It also engaged in the libertarian tendency to see anything that doesn't involve cutting taxes and destroying the government as oppression. I think that is a narrow view of freedom and oppression.
Cythraul
Active Member
- Dec 10, 2003
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The reason that libertarians focus a lot on what the government does is that it's the main instrument through which coercive oppression occurs. Libertarian objections to what governments typically do usually comes from a more fundamental objection to what governments engage in. It's not that it's the government that's doing these things that's relevant. The objection is more along the lines that these things interfere with liberty and it's the government that usually engages in these interferences on a massive scale. Libertarians would (I hope) just as readily object to a non-state entity engaging in the very same things. On the other hand, if you think that government interference with certain negative liberties tends to promote positive liberties, that's another story. But I would argue that a general prohibition on government interference with negative liberties has historically been the best way to promote positive liberties, with some notable exceptions. I think that if you score below like a 20 on this libertarian purity test then you must love the shit out of government in some quasi-religious sense, but that may simply be my own bias talking.
Badbird
Never banned
I just retake the test and got a 16. That might have to do with skipping questions I have not check yet and mostly my libertarian views are more on drugs and bedroom stuff.
SentinelSlain
Suck my joined date.
- Nov 21, 2007
- 10,015
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I got 18 on the libertarian thing which is oddly high considering the political compass, last time I did it, put me slightly into authoritarian and halfway into the left. So I disagree with everyone else here and am decidedly red.
cookiecutter
Proceed to Ultraslamming
This is exactly what I meant. Granting that not paying taxes would be a negative liberty, I disagree with the idea removing interference on it is a way to promote positive liberty. I guess it one were to simplify it down to an equation, I feel more freedom is gained than lost from a government. I am guessing a libertarian would more highly rate those negative freedoms that a government takes (taxes? guns? help me out here), whereas I more highly rate the positive freedoms.
Considering that, while I am a big fan of government services, every single question on the test was like "should we abolish the department of education" I think it's a mix of both our biases.
Badbird
Never banned
A thing to look about libertarianism is the times of the 19 century and the 1920's to see how bad the system is. The rich got richer and the poor gets poorer and is screwed without any social programs to help the poverty. It was a better time for the markets but for the middle class and poor, this was not the case. Nick brought up the nineteen century in his first post about the subject of libertarianism. We and him are more concerned about positive freedoms, where you Cythraul as well as a few others are more worried about negative freedoms such as guns and taxes. A progressive like me thinks gun control is the way to go, where Dakryn thinks it's borderline socialism and taking away his freedom.
Badbird
Never banned
The following are your scores. They are based on a gradual range of 0 to 12. For instance, a Conservative/Progressive score of 3 and 0 will both yield a result of social conservative, yet 0 would be an extreme conservative and 3 a moderate conservative
Conservative/Progressive score: 12
You are a social progressive. You generally consider yourself a humanist first. You probably think that religion and patriotism go too far in society. You probably consider yourself to be a citizen of Earth first rather than a citizen of your country.
Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12
You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.
Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 2
You are libertarian. You think that the government is making way too many unnecessary laws that are taking away our innate rights. You believe that the government's job is primarily to protect people from harming other people, but after that they should mind their own business, and if we give the government too much power in controlling our lives, it can lead to fascism.
Pacifist/Militarist score: 2
You're a Pacifist. You are angered that the United States thinks it should dominate the world through its military force. You think that the only time war is necessary is when we are in direct danger of being attacked. You also believe the US spends way too much of its money on defense, as we can practically cut it in half and still easily defend ourselves, and use that money to fix all our economic problems.
Overall, you would most likely fit into the category of Hardcore Democrat
http://politicalquiz.110mb.com/type2.bmp
Currently, after 87319 submissions, the average Conservative/Progressive score is 5.99, the average Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score is 6.75, the average Libertarian/Authoritarian score is 5.56, and the average Pacifist/Militarist score is 4.52
1. Are our gun control laws too strict? - 27% said yes, 73% said no
2. Should gay marriage be legalized? - 64% said yes, 36% said no
3. Should we consider invading Iran? - 24% said yes, 76% said no
4. Should intelligent design be taught in public schools alongside evolution? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
5. Does the US need a system of universal health care? - 60% said yes, 40% said no
6. Should marijuana be legalized? - 57% said yes, 43% said no
7. Should we repeal [or substantially change] the Patriot Act? - 57% said yes, 43% said no
8. Does the US have a right to stop countries we do not trust from getting weapons? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
9. Should we end (or reduce the use of) the death penalty? - 40% said yes, 60% said no
10. Should there be a higher minimum wage? - 68% said yes, 32% said no
11. Does affirmative action do more harm than good? - 63% said yes, 37% said no
12. Is the United States spending too much money on defense? - 55% said yes, 45% said no
13. Should embryonic stem cell research be funded by the government? - 59% said yes, 41% said no
14. Should flag burning be legal? - 43% said yes, 57% said no
15. Should all people (rich and poor) pay fewer taxes? - 60% said yes, 40% said no
16. Should the US begin withdrawing from Iraq? - 78% said yes, 22% said no
17. Is it sometimes justified to wiretap US citizens without a warrant? - 34% said yes, 66% said no
18. Should the government be involved in reducing the amount of violence/pornography in tv/movies/games/etc? - 25% said yes, 75% said no
19. Should the United States only start a war if there is an imminent threat of being attacked ourselves? - 76% said yes, 24% said no
20. Should stopping illegal immigration be one of our top priorities? - 56% said yes, 44% said no
21. Is outsourcing of American jobs justified if it allows for cheaper goods? - 28% said yes, 72% said no
22. Are all abortions unethical? [with the exception of risk to mother's health] - 37% said yes, 63% said no
23. Should social security be privatized? - 56% said yes, 44% said no
24. Should the United States ever go to war even if the UN is against it? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
http://politicalquiz.net/
Conservative/Progressive score: 12
You are a social progressive. You generally consider yourself a humanist first. You probably think that religion and patriotism go too far in society. You probably consider yourself to be a citizen of Earth first rather than a citizen of your country.
Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12
You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.
Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 2
You are libertarian. You think that the government is making way too many unnecessary laws that are taking away our innate rights. You believe that the government's job is primarily to protect people from harming other people, but after that they should mind their own business, and if we give the government too much power in controlling our lives, it can lead to fascism.
Pacifist/Militarist score: 2
You're a Pacifist. You are angered that the United States thinks it should dominate the world through its military force. You think that the only time war is necessary is when we are in direct danger of being attacked. You also believe the US spends way too much of its money on defense, as we can practically cut it in half and still easily defend ourselves, and use that money to fix all our economic problems.
Overall, you would most likely fit into the category of Hardcore Democrat
http://politicalquiz.110mb.com/type2.bmp
Currently, after 87319 submissions, the average Conservative/Progressive score is 5.99, the average Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score is 6.75, the average Libertarian/Authoritarian score is 5.56, and the average Pacifist/Militarist score is 4.52
1. Are our gun control laws too strict? - 27% said yes, 73% said no
2. Should gay marriage be legalized? - 64% said yes, 36% said no
3. Should we consider invading Iran? - 24% said yes, 76% said no
4. Should intelligent design be taught in public schools alongside evolution? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
5. Does the US need a system of universal health care? - 60% said yes, 40% said no
6. Should marijuana be legalized? - 57% said yes, 43% said no
7. Should we repeal [or substantially change] the Patriot Act? - 57% said yes, 43% said no
8. Does the US have a right to stop countries we do not trust from getting weapons? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
9. Should we end (or reduce the use of) the death penalty? - 40% said yes, 60% said no
10. Should there be a higher minimum wage? - 68% said yes, 32% said no
11. Does affirmative action do more harm than good? - 63% said yes, 37% said no
12. Is the United States spending too much money on defense? - 55% said yes, 45% said no
13. Should embryonic stem cell research be funded by the government? - 59% said yes, 41% said no
14. Should flag burning be legal? - 43% said yes, 57% said no
15. Should all people (rich and poor) pay fewer taxes? - 60% said yes, 40% said no
16. Should the US begin withdrawing from Iraq? - 78% said yes, 22% said no
17. Is it sometimes justified to wiretap US citizens without a warrant? - 34% said yes, 66% said no
18. Should the government be involved in reducing the amount of violence/pornography in tv/movies/games/etc? - 25% said yes, 75% said no
19. Should the United States only start a war if there is an imminent threat of being attacked ourselves? - 76% said yes, 24% said no
20. Should stopping illegal immigration be one of our top priorities? - 56% said yes, 44% said no
21. Is outsourcing of American jobs justified if it allows for cheaper goods? - 28% said yes, 72% said no
22. Are all abortions unethical? [with the exception of risk to mother's health] - 37% said yes, 63% said no
23. Should social security be privatized? - 56% said yes, 44% said no
24. Should the United States ever go to war even if the UN is against it? - 51% said yes, 49% said no
http://politicalquiz.net/
I scored a 32, and seriously laughed at some of the very poor questions & options that were presented & offered. I'm not going to talk shit about the thematic of the test, because that's not where the fault lied. It was literally a case of "pick A or B". My response was "Well, both A and B are paltry choices because..."
"PICK A OR B!"
I'm still scoring in the same place on the political compass that I did when I first tried it a long time ago.
As for the Moral Politics test:
YOUR SCORE
Your scored -5.5 on Moral Order and 5 on Moral Rules.
The following categories best match your score (multiple responses are possible):
System: Socialism
Ideology: International Socialism, Activism
Party: No match.
Presidents: Jimmy Carter
04' Election: David Cobb
08' Election: Dennis Kucinich
Of the 667,676 respondents (11,708 on Facebook):
4% are close to you.
83% are more conservative.
6% are more liberal.
2% are more socialist.
5% are more authoritarian.
Cythraul
Active Member
- Dec 10, 2003
- 6,755
- 134
- 63
That's not true. It's certainly true that the poor were poorer in the 19th and early 20th centuries than they are now, but the reason they're less poor now is primarily due to economic growth, not state welfare programs. Actually, there's reason to believe that state welfare programs have the tendency to reduce economic growth to levels below what it would be in the absence of such programs. The fact that there was a lot of poverty in 19th century and early 20th century England and the U.S. proves nothing. And it certainly doesn't prove that poverty would be significantly worse than it is now if we actually had a free market. Actually, if you look at a recent real world case of reduction of the welfare state (1996 welfare reform) the evidence tends to show that the poor are not worse off, at least not as a result of welfare reform. In fact, there are good reasons to believe that this needed to happen.
Also, you should look into the phenomenon of mutual aid in 19th and early 20th century England, the U.S., and Australia. Before the growth of the welfare state, the poor actually had ways of helping themselves. It's not quite clear whether mutual aid was better than state welfare on balance, but it looks like the welfare state actually crowded out many of the functions served by mutual aid. Mutual aid also had the advantage of reducing dependency, as opposed to many kinds of state welfare program, which often encourage it. For more on the subject, see: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Mutual-Aid-Welfare-State-Fraternal/dp/0807848417[/ame]
There are even some libertarians who argue that the 19th and early 20th centuries were far from laissez-faire. See: http://www.amconmag.com/blog/libertarian-left/
From the linked article: left-libertarians are revisionists, insisting that the era of near laissez faire is a myth. Rather than a radical freeing of economic affairs, England saw the ruling elite rig the social system on behalf of propertied class interests. (Class analysis originated with French free-market economists predating Marx.)
Through enclosure, peasants were dispossessed of land they and their kin had worked for generations and were forcibly turned into rent-paying tenants or wage-earners in the new factories with their rights to organize and even to move restricted by laws of settlement, poor laws, combination laws, and more. In the American colonies and early republic, the system was similarly rigged through land grants and speculation (for and by railroads, for example), voting restrictions, tariffs, patents, and control of money and banking.
In other words, the twilight of feudalism and the dawn of capitalism did not find everyone poised at the starting line as equals—far from it. As the pro-market sociologist Franz Oppenheimer, who developed the conquest theory of the state, wrote in his book The State, it was not superior talent, ambition, thrift, or even luck that separated the property-holding minority from the propertyless proletarian majority—but legal plunder, to borrow Bastiat’s famous phrase.
The fact that it was a better time for the markets meant that living standards could rise rapidly, unhampered by the welfare state. That's primarily why the poor in the U.S. live like kings compared with their counterparts in the third world.
Also, generous welfare states create cultures of entitled brats who can't deal with economic reality (see Greece, rioting)
Badbird
Never banned
Death Aflame
voice of dissent
- Feb 1, 2004
- 2,504
- 2
- 38
- 38
I usually score in the libertarian left quadrant of the political compass quiz. I didn't bother finishing the libertarian purity quiz, since most of my answers to the questions are a "No, but..." or a "Yes, but..." which it has no way to account for.
Identifying as a mutualist is a tough game. It's basically a political philosophy of contradictions on the surface, so I always have issues with these quizzes that are designed around status quo notions of right and left, authoritarian and libertarian.
This quiz is interesting. But it is from a website that has a strong left libertarian voice, so naturally the questions are designed in such a way that the subtleties of that perspective can be expressed, likely to the detriment of other, orthodox statist views.
Identifying as a mutualist is a tough game. It's basically a political philosophy of contradictions on the surface, so I always have issues with these quizzes that are designed around status quo notions of right and left, authoritarian and libertarian.
This quiz is interesting. But it is from a website that has a strong left libertarian voice, so naturally the questions are designed in such a way that the subtleties of that perspective can be expressed, likely to the detriment of other, orthodox statist views.
Badbird
Never banned
Saparmurat_Niyazov
Member
Of course, if you're lucky enough to agree with the ruling party on everything. I would love to live in a dictatorship where the ruler agrees with me 100%, but that's not likely to ever happen. I believe that the state only has a useful role in matters of national defense (stress on defense, i.e., if said nation is directly attacked) and maintaining/developing infrastructure.
EDIT: Here's my political compass. I've taken it before, and it hasn't really changed, except I used to be slight more left leaning and slightly less libertarian.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-2.75&soc=-4.15
cookiecutter
Proceed to Ultraslamming
I would agree with this interpretation of history, but the reason the starting line was evened was government regulation. I fail to see how a more pure laissez-faire system could be created without having the rich rig the system. I am certain libertarian theory has a workaround for this, but I am skeptical. I would prefer to stick with the proven method of preventing the rigging of the system.
Yet the poor in the states with more developed welfare systems live better and are less numerous than in the US. This partially has to do with race and an overly punitive criminal justice system, but I'm curious how you would explain that under your interpretation.
Is there actual evidence for this, or is this merely an emotional reaction?
Badbird
Never banned
No one on here has tried http://politicalquiz.net/ yet? I think the biggest problem with this quiz is that it's too Americanize but I like they have a moderate and libertarian part of this quiz.
Badbird
Never banned
Einherjar86
Active Member
You could replace all "right-wing" references in their with "left-wing" and it would still be a true statement.
Saparmurat_Niyazov
Member
Wow, these results are not even close to being compatible:
Libertarian purity: 88
Moral politics:
Your scored -4 on Moral Order and -4.5 on Moral Rules.
1. System: Liberalism
2. Ideology: Capital Democratism
3. Party: Democratic Party
4. Presidents: Bill Clinton
5. 04' Election: Michael Badnarik
6. 08' Election: Barrack Obama
I actually did vote for Badnarik in '04.
I'm aware of that.
EDIT: From http://politicalquiz.net/
Libertarian purity: 88
Moral politics:
Your scored -4 on Moral Order and -4.5 on Moral Rules.
1. System: Liberalism
2. Ideology: Capital Democratism
3. Party: Democratic Party
4. Presidents: Bill Clinton
5. 04' Election: Michael Badnarik
6. 08' Election: Barrack Obama
I actually did vote for Badnarik in '04.
I'm aware of that.
EDIT: From http://politicalquiz.net/
Badbird
Never banned
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