Live AE's. Low volumes tricks for a venue ?¿

[Trevoire520]

+1 Wayyyy too many live shows go absolutely excessive with the subs. It's a phenomenon I've noticed across every size of venue and every style of band I've ever seen. Far too many guys just hide behind a wall of bass and kick and think it sounds good. WRONG! Kick drum is not a lead instrument. If I can't hear the guitars because of your wall of subs then you're not doing your fucking job.

 

[PaulSOCW]

105db is the max level allowed in France in any venue, and it's loud... Where the hell do you have wind louder than 105db???

You could try micing my ass after a curry.

No in all seriousness - the guy behind the bar once took the spl meter outside and the leaves blowing in the wind were measuring more on the meter than the actual band playing inside. So how the hell she was supposidly bein disturbed inside her house by the bands playing inside is beyond me.

 

[ahjteam]

Have an SPL meter with you and keep it round the 95 - 105DB at the console and no one should complain about volume

After having mixed about 600 gigs with 87dB limit at the FOH on the cruise ships, I consider everything over 95dB is "loud"... I try to mix all the bands regardless of the venue size so that it doesn't get over 100dB at the FOH mixer at any point.

But, more pointers:

- Plexiglass for drummer: Sometimes a necessary evil, but I would recommend NOT getting them at first. Or if you are thinking about it, I suggest you play at least one gig behind the kit with the plexi glass (with a floor wedge, not in-ears) and you will notice how awful it is. But I would still recommend getting them as the last resort if the drummers get constantly too loud. But start without them.

- Highpass filter: High pass EVERYTHING except the kick at 80hz (or higher, if it is an option) or have the subwoofers behind an aux send and only send kick (and subdrops) in there. Low end is what makes unnecessary loudness, takes too much headroom and makes everything sound smeared.

- More about mic choises:
* I talked about the drum mics already, so no need to recap that. Personally I prefer drum mics that don't need a stand, but use a clip instead.
* Vocal mics: There are better sounding mics than SM58's, but they are relatively cheap, sound decent, fairly insensitive to feedback, really durable and even the most snob tech guys will accept them (same with SM57's), so no real reason why not to get them, especially if the musicians are douche bags "rockstars" and don't treat your mics with the respect they deserve.
* Get a few (like 1-4 pairs, even cheap ones will do) SDC condenser mics for stuff like percussions. If you want, you can get 1-2 LDC mics, but in general I suggest to stay away from them as they are usually too sensitive for feedback.
* DI-boxes: You also need DI-boxes. I would say you need minimum of 4, but I suggest getting 8-12. Get like 4-8 good ones (Radial, Countryman, BSS...) and then fill the rest of the amount with Behringer DI-100s (they are like what, 29€ a piece?), so that the fuckers can't complain you don't have enough DI-boxes. That amount will do for almost everything you will ever encounter, and if it doesn't, tell them to bring their own DI's.

- SPL meter: Get one, I think you can get them fairly cheap from Radio Shack. Within 1-10 gigs you will notice what is considered loud and what is considered quiet by you and the staff, and try to keep it at the edge. Remember that you use a gate to make something quieter and a compressor to make something louder, so thats why I would suggest not to use a master compressor. But bus/group compressor? Definitely maybe.

 

[John_C]

You could try micing my ass after a curry.

No in all seriousness - the guy behind the bar once took the spl meter outside and the leaves blowing in the wind were measuring more on the meter than the actual band playing inside. So how the hell she was supposidly bein disturbed inside her house by the bands playing inside is beyond me.

wind+unprotected spl meter = lies

+1 to the guys talking about too much bass, almost ever metal gig i've ever been to has suffered from this. I don't get it at all, they go to all this effort doing a soundcheck and getting each instrument sounding nice and then they just wack the subs up to full so all you ever hear is kick, cymbals, vocals and the occasional bit of lead.

 

[joelplagues]

I see alot of dB levels being thrown around but what are you guys measuring by A weighted, C weighted? There is a HUGE difference.

 

[if6was9]

Here is a thought...I have noticed at every show that I have ever gone to, the sound has so much energy in the subs and generally overpower everything else in the mix. It is funny or coincidental...that those are the frequencies that manage to travel through buildings. So many venues including national acts have these brick shithouses for low end generally having more subs (and power for said subs) than they do for the mains. Try to simply back off on the low end, IMO live shows over hype the lows (Fletcher-Munson effect) and due to those volumes you simply do not need as much bass compared to lower listening levels.

Also your best best is to simply not mic the cymbals, mic everything else up and make the FOH volume match the acoustic volume of the cymbals. This means that guitars and bass cannot be at full volume which many bassist and guitarist tend to do which they need to be shot for. The volume of the amps should be quiet enough so that you can still have a normal conversation with someone within 5 feet of the amp, still loud, but nothing ridiculous. The entire drum kit acoustically should be able to drown out the amps.

Easier said than done with the cymbals and it's probably why so many venues have an abundandance of power for the bins, to try and even out the balance between the highs and lows. I'd much prefer to have too much power in the low end and not use it than to have not enough. Nothing sucks more than mixing a gig where you don't have any proper low end in the P.A. You can get a nice balance but it lacks the power.

Where I was house tech before they closed down I used to roll off the poweramps to the bins because it was just too bassy. Happiest I've ever been doing sound was there in it's last few months. We moved to a new area of the building so we got set up the stage and FOH areas ourselves. We got a load of extra PA gear and I brought in new outboard. I loved it, bands loved it but there just wasn't enough people coming in spending money at the bar to keep it open.

I second the point made eariler about high passing everything except kick. I usually make an exception for bass and floor toms too but it really depends on the source and the system. I'd often find myself rolling off tons of the low end on the guitars and vocals. You'd be shocked how much low end you can take off vocals before it makes too much of an impact on their tone.

Also random point- I've always struggled to make acoustic guitars sound good to me. I'd pretty much always find myself playing with their EQ on the channelstrip constantly throughout gigs. I can never seem to find the balance between fullness and clarity. Weirdly though, I'd often get compliments on how good they sound but I've very rarely been happy myself. Since we're talking live sound how do you guys treat acoustic guitars generally? Especially with compression, I almost never use it on acoustics but often hear of guys that do? Obviously the guit/pickup quality plays such a huge role here but aside from that...

 

[ahjteam]

I see alot of dB levels being thrown around but what are you guys measuring by A weighted, C weighted? There is a HUGE difference.

Slow A weighting

 

[pikachu69]

After having mixed about 600 gigs with 87dB limit at the FOH on the cruise ships, I consider everything over 95dB is "loud"... I try to mix all the bands regardless of the venue size so that it doesn't get over 100dB at the FOH mixer at any point.

I have a mixed a similar amount of gigs, no cruise ships but every other kind of venue possible. The level is always dictated by the size and type of venue which is why I gave a very broad number of 95 - 105. In some cases that will be too loud, in others it will not. I have no trouble taking a mix down to 85db.

I think in live work, 'getting your quiteness' works much the same as 'getting your loudness' in recording. Only an evenly mixed frequency plot and well controlled dynamics will allow you to have all your instruments at a low level and still be heard clearly and evenly and the bonus is if you get this right you will be able to be louder than usual but still be quite enough to please most venue owners.

The best way to test your live mixing skills is to record a line off the FOH mix for reference listening later. It should sound pretty damn decent straight off the board when you listen back to it but if you find that things in the mix are way to up front/behind or what ever then something was clouding your mix in the room. It could be that the system was not tuned in properly or too much bass in the mix as mentioned earlier. (it could a number of things though) If you can get your FOH mix to create a good recording then your FOH mix will be killer too.

 

[ahjteam]

The best way to test your live mixing skills is to record a line off the FOH mix for reference listening later.

Here is one of mine, straight main out, thats why guitars are a bit quiet and delays&keys pretty loud. I think the dB's were around 90 for the whole show even tho the mixer was only ~10m away from the stage: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/14_Mental_Fix.mp3

 

[pikachu69]

Cool M8 it is downloading now but my download is on a go slow so I will listen later.
I have nothing current on my laptop ATM but I have a gig on this weekend with 5 bands playing. I am playing bass for a RHCP tribute band first up but I am mixing the other 4 bands after that and they are all metal. I will see if I can record the mix to post if you are interested.

 

[Charlie E.]

I've only ever been able to get a good board mix out of bands with reasonable stage volume. As soon as you have a drummer who bangs the shit out of his drums then I'm forced to pull them way down. Or a guitarist who is so loud that even when you mute him he still sounds louder than the band. Ugh

 

[Sloan]

Or a guitarist who is so loud that even when you mute him he still sounds louder than the band. Ugh

i had a drunkass guitar player pull that shit at their cd release party. worst sound EVER.

 

[if6was9]

Nothing pisses me off more when mixing a show than a guitarist/bassist turning around and jacking up their volume mid-show. Especially after a long soundcheck. I walk onto the stage and turn it down, then give them more in the monitors. It's really annoying, all they have to do is signal for more in their monitors. Doesn't happen that often but when it does it really pisses me off because they know they're affecting the main mix and they just don't care.

 

[Sloan]

Nothing pisses me off more when mixing a show than a guitarist/bassist turning around and jacking up their volume mid-show. Especially after a long soundcheck. I walk onto the stage and turn it down, then give them more in the monitors. It's really annoying, all they have to do is signal for more in their monitors. Doesn't happen that often but when it does it really pisses me off because they know they're affecting the main mix and they just don't care.

most performers seem oblivious to this. in my opinion, lack of communication with sound dude is the biggest issue in live sound. especially if you don't get to sound check

i run my own sound from the stage in my cover band situation and we often don't have time to sound check so i have to juggle getting the right spot in my amp, guitar, and then balancing it in the monitors etc. it sucks, but if my amp master is too low, i don't have enough clean headroom and it's almost impossible to tell how much is enough until the whole band is playing.

 

[drew_drummer]

most performers seem oblivious to this. in my opinion, lack of communication with sound dude is the biggest issue in live sound. especially if you don't get to sound check

Blame the venues for that one!

 

[El_Gato]

- Cymbals. Balance everything to the loudness of the cymbals, and NEVER mic them unless they are expecting more than 300 people. You can mic the hihat tho.
- Dynamics. Gates are more important than compressors to getting quieter sound, and they also make the mixes sound cleaner. Use them for kick, snare and toms. I prefer dbx, but even the Behringer/Samson ones will do. With compressors I prefer to use them on kick, snare, bass, lead vocals and groups, and some put it on the master bus too. 4 channels is bare minimum for "good" production. I would be more than happy with 4-6 dbx 166XL's (2 channel gate-comp-limiter) and a 4 channel gate.

So, you just simply kill the cymbal bleeding with gates and then some comp, right? I'll improvise and practice.

 

[El_Gato]

most performers seem oblivious to this. in my opinion, lack of communication with sound dude is the biggest issue in live sound. especially if you don't get to sound check

i run my own sound from the stage in my cover band situation and we often don't have time to sound check so i have to juggle getting the right spot in my amp, guitar, and then balancing it in the monitors etc. it sucks, but if my amp master is too low, i don't have enough clean headroom and it's almost impossible to tell how much is enough until the whole band is playing.

Agree. The very few gigs I've mixed turned out great because of communication.

Even with no experience at all, I must say my 1st gig sounded quite good because I applied what I know from audio production: Hp's, riding faders, balancing freq's... It's not that difficult for small venues. Now, big stages with complex systems must be a whole different story, spare me the cephalalgia.

 

[SimonTaddio_Qc]

Here is one of mine, straight main out, thats why guitars are a bit quiet and delays&keys pretty loud. I think the dB's were around 90 for the whole show even tho the mixer was only ~10m away from the stage: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/14_Mental_Fix.mp3

pretty groovy, sounds good. If the guitar player had used a boost while playing lead, I think I'd have nothing to say about the mix.
Also cool to hear there's almost 0 cymbal bleed.

Care to elaborate a bit on how was the brass section was processed?