Live dudes: your take on low freq's ?

[xFkx]

First of all, I really wish our happy little home would have a live sound section...


Anyway, I can't make up my mind about the low freq content of a live mix. Lately I had the privilege to work on a few systems that had an abundance of power to say the least, and I couldn't decide weather I want the whole mix to be balanced, or to really have peoples guts moving when the kick drum hits...

what's your take on this ?

 

[egan.]

When possible it's great to aux feed the subs...just kick, bass, floor tom and sometimes keys. But yeah, I like the kick to pound.

 

[P-E]

Live you should get that kick drum really pouding in your chest IMO.

 

[pikachu69]

Live mixing is just like studio work.
Everything you do should be for the benifit of the song and should always be done in a musical way. Bass soaks up energy that can be used for other instruments. Hi pass every thing except for bass, kick and floor tom.
Wanna test your live mix? record out of the tape or headphones output. If it sounds good, you live mix will too. If it sounds unbalanced, you live mix was too. Style of music also plays a big part. For metal a punchy bass drum is important but too much thump in the chest can be destracting and un tasteful. I acually walked out on a SlipKnot gig because the bass drum was so loud and bassy I literally got an upset stomach. Also I could not hear any of the percussion, samples and vocals as a result. All in all it totally killed the gig so do be careful.

 

[Morgan C]

I'm not a live engineer but can I say that having too much lowend (especially in the kick) can ruin a concert. I saw Sevendust live and all I could hear was the kick. Every time he kicked, the vocals ducked, the guitars ducked, it was ridiculous. The kick sounded fantastic, but that was all I could hear.
Likewise I went to see Lamb of God, who have double-kick going on through most of their songs. While it wasn't as unbalanced as Sevendust, it still got REALLY fucking annoying - that pounding in your chest is fantastic, but not every .3 seconds for 90 minutes. Automation might be good here.

 

[xFkx]

four posts, two different opinions, not an easy choice...

I agree Morgan with your observation, that's why I started using comp's on triggered drums so they get some GR when the drummer starts to go wild on the kicks

 

[egan.]

I think P-E would agree with me that neither of us is advocating "so loud it ruins the mix." The style and speed of the band should be considerations as well b/c "chest thumping" double bass is just a mess. If you know the songs there's no reason why you couldn't (shouldn't) fader ride.

 

[egan.]

Bass soaks up energy that can be used for other instruments.

Not on a decent system it doesn't. If you are using passive stacks then sure but decent sized clubs should be bi or tri amped at the least.

Wanna test your live mix? record out of the tape or headphones output. If it sounds good, you live mix will too. If it sounds unbalanced, you live mix was too.

This is bad advice unless you are mixing somewhere where the house is so big that stage volume (including monitors) has no impact on the sound in the house. For example in most clubs if you listen to your board feed there will be a ton of vocals, snare, kick and keys and far less of everything else (especially guitars). Add to that your guitars may have a funny eq to compensate for the amp coming off stage. So, sure at some giant festival your board feed might have some value but otherwise it won't make much sense without the context of that room with that stage sound.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think it's hard for a lot of people to leave out the low end, just because it is so obvious to a listener.
I always try and work around the guitars, if it's fucking with the clarity of the guitars, then get rid of it.
I think that's one thing that non metal dudes go wrong with, they don't get that guitars are THE single most important element of a metal band's musicality.
It might feel powerful, but it ceases to be music.

 

[Firaxis]

I would say you do need the bass, but as others have said, be careful! I was at a festival, Sylosis played there but there was so much bass coming from the bass guitar, it felt like the entire room was resonating, maybe it was. It was painful and when the kicks came in, everything just turned to mush.

Satyricon played later on and got it just right though, i dont even like the band but their sound was amazing

 

[P-E]

I think P-E would agree with me that neither of us is advocating "so loud it ruins the mix." The style and speed of the band should be considerations as well b/c "chest thumping" double bass is just a mess. If you know the songs there's no reason why you couldn't (shouldn't) fader ride.

You couldn't have said it any better. Do just like with a good mix, if you know the songs, automate through them so you keep them interesting (and sounding good) for the listener.

 

[xFkx]

You couldn't have said it any better. Do just like with a good mix, if you know the songs, automate through them so you keep them interesting (and sounding good) for the listener.

It is a solution, but they really should include multiband comps in more consoles...

 

[arv_foh]

I'm not a live engineer but can I say that having too much lowend (especially in the kick) can ruin a concert. I saw Sevendust live and all I could hear was the kick. Every time he kicked, the vocals ducked, the guitars ducked, it was ridiculous. The kick sounded fantastic, but that was all I could hear.
Likewise I went to see Lamb of God, who have double-kick going on through most of their songs. While it wasn't as unbalanced as Sevendust, it still got REALLY fucking annoying - that pounding in your chest is fantastic, but not every .3 seconds for 90 minutes. Automation might be good here.

The sound guy for sevendust is fucking awful, he mixes so loud it's almost painful to listen to

to the OP: if I can't feel the kick drum move air I feel like I'm not doing my job correctly. that thing needs to THUMP but not overpower everything else

 

[pikachu69]

This is bad advice unless you are mixing somewhere where the house is so big that stage volume (including monitors) has no impact on the sound in the house. For example in most clubs if you listen to your board feed there will be a ton of vocals, snare, kick and keys and far less of everything else (especially guitars). Add to that your guitars may have a funny eq to compensate for the amp coming off stage. So, sure at some giant festival your board feed might have some value but otherwise it won't make much sense without the context of that room with that stage sound.

I have to strongly disagree here. I have mixed and worked with other engineers mixing in small pub type venues, 100 - 300 people max with very successful board recordings coming from them. Yes the bigger the venue the easier to get a good recording off the desk but it is completey possible to get a great recording from a small gig too.

 

[ahjteam]

Well, I usually highpass everything at 80hz other than kick _OR_ bass. In mid sized venues if the drummer plays fast double pedal stuff, I rather let the bass guitar go there without highpass and then highpass the kicks at 80hz. In my opinion the +180 BPM heavy metal kicks don't really need to go full 0-200hz bandwidth to the subs in my opinion anyway as it will just sound like a wet fart at 16th notes and it will feel super annoying after 10 minutes. The 80-200hz is more than enough to deliver chest nastiness.

 

[Morgan C]

I have to strongly disagree here. I have mixed and worked with other engineers mixing in small pub type venues, 100 - 300 people max with very successful board recordings coming from them. Yes the bigger the venue the easier to get a good recording off the desk but it is completey possible to get a great recording from a small gig too.

I think his point was that a recording from the gig is not going to be an accurate representation of what the gig actually sounded like on the night.

 

[egan.]

I have to strongly disagree here. I have mixed and worked with other engineers mixing in small pub type venues, 100 - 300 people max with very successful board recordings coming from them. Yes the bigger the venue the easier to get a good recording off the desk but it is completey possible to get a great recording from a small gig too.

Are you generating a separate mix off an aux or coming out of the headphone as you suggest? In a 100 person club with a rock band using normal amps you would have nearly zero guitars in the main PA. It would be almost entirely kick and vocals. Now, sure if you are mixing to tape separately you can get somewhere but not straight off of the stereo unless you completely compromise the FOH for the recording. Of course the situation totally changes if you are talking about instrumentation with less (or possibly equal) acoustic volume. But even then, the point is unless you throw up room mics, your close mic mix doesn't represent the sound in the house b/c there are too many other variables involved unless the PA is perfectly tuned and the room is dead.

 

[Trevoire520]

I like running the sub from a seperate aux if possible. Just kick, bass, floor toms and possibly synths/samplers (mainly if they're doing subdrops) go to this. Everything else on the board tends to get high passed. Though it depends on the desk (e.g. if the board hpf is at 120hz I probably won't high pass the rack toms unless they're really small)

Getting the low end right at a live gig is really important. Far too many shit live sound guys just blast the audience with tons of kick and bass and think it sounds good. It doesn't. If I can't hear the guitars and vocals because of your kick drum then the kick is too fucking loud!

 

[Strachan of D]

with kick i tend to prefer to just hear it but feel it , i like floor toms to be bassy but not too boomy

 

[Sloan]

FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS UNHOLY KEEP THAT SHIT CONTROLLED. Hate low freq shitting all over the place, most venues seem to have shit acoustics anyway and there's plenty of nastiness, don't add to it!