Loudness War VS Unmastered

[abaga129]

I'm actually writing a paper for a class on the loudness war right now! I came across this article. Its very interesting to see someone in the pro audio field take this stance on it.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm

 

[RedDog]

This isn't GS. We of all people know what being smashed to fuck sounds like. We gave Sturgis a forum, for god's sake. If you're still fighting the loudness war, you're a day late. The whole ranting about the volume knob thing had been done already.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

This isn't GS. We of all people know what being smashed to fuck sounds like. We gave Sturgis a forum, for god's sake. If you're still fighting the loudness war, you're a day late. The whole ranting about the volume knob thing had been done already.

And your point is..? Can't beat 'em join 'em?

"We of all people" should know that loudness doesn't mean a goddamn thing. This isn't MTV. Records done here won't sell or play shit compared to main stream big players. There is no need for exessive loudness. No one's gonna think your bands cool because your Facebook player is louder than anybody elses. You won't atract more label or promotional support with bigger (well, smaller) rms-readings. If your songs rock, and your production is tight, and you get lucky, you might make it. Loudness doesn't mean a god damn thing in that equation..

The thread title itself tells how fuck'd up things are. "loudness war vs unmastered"? Wtf? Strapping an FgX on 2buss isn't mastering. Smashing the fuck out of a mix with a limiter isn't mastering. It's ok that consumers and musicians are clueless on the technical aspects. But when guys offering services and claiming to be engineers start crapping things up, I get pissed off. And I'm not even old and bitter, I'm young and cheerful.

It's very simple really.

If it's your own material and you really believe in it, then do the right thing. Take it to some legit guy who has quality gear, quality room, expertise and a great catalog. Not some hack who thinks he's an mastering engineer just because owns both Ozone and Fg-X. Make the best out of what your music could be.

If your doing some music to amuse yourself and friends.. No one's gonna give fuck anyway. Just make it sound good and don't destroy it with loudness.

If you wanna learn the craft, start it right and understand that smashing the fuck out of things for loudness has zero-fucking-thing to do with proper mastering.

E: And this by no means is an attack against Clark

 

[blue_fAng]

I think the point of this thread is that not every loud record is squashed/destroyed and some people are still bashing them just because the fact they are loud when there's nothing wrong with them. For example some people hear or read in the internet that there is a loudness war going on and they start to rant about loudness because they heard Death Magnetic sound too loud and distorted and take it as a reference the loudness war. It's ok but that doesn't mean that every very loud record sounds bad.

 

[AboutBlank]

Some Music benefits from a loud "mastering".
Genre and stylewise.

Actually some people like "smashed to death" mixes, if the mix supports the music I don't mind it, it's an expression form.

 

[RedDog]

And your point is..?

I think the point of this thread is that not every loud record is squashed/destroyed and some people are still bashing them just because the fact they are loud when there's nothing wrong with them. For example some people hear or read in the internet that there is a loudness war going on and they start to rant about loudness because they heard Death Magnetic sound too loud and distorted and take it as a reference the loudness war. It's ok but that doesn't mean that every very loud record sounds bad.

This.

This is my point.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

This.

This is my point.

Yes. And it's got nothing to do with point I made earlier.

If something is loud, it's loud. There is nothing wrong with it.. The problem is that very few can pull that off without compromising the potential of the song and the mix. And to some extent, it can not be pulled off by anyone, when reaching for levels you see to day.

When people start going "geewez, if i just shave of a little low end from the bass and clip the master I can make it little louder". That's not decission based on musical preference.. That's just bullshit. Nothing more. No matter how you turn it around.

There is a cycle, you see.. When you start compromising your mix for stupid shit, there is no telling where it will take you. "I can't have this much bass or it won't go to x rms, I can't have that much stuff on the sides" etc. It very easily turns into how it MUST be done. And thinking that it actually has to sound like that.. And reading threads here, for many it has.

I like to make my desicisions based on musical preference.. "Does it sound good?" "Will that compromise the loudness of the mix?" is not a decision based on musical preference.

I'm not saying that loud mixes all sound like shit, far from it. You can smash the
everlovin' christ out of your 2buss and the mix can still be great. But I'd wager
my nuts that 10/10 times a well done mixing with proper mastering will always triumph.

The whole thing is more about guys flailing their cocks around rather than making music. Which is off course fine if your into that sorta thang.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

This.

This is my point.

E: Holy double post, Batman!

 

[RedDog]

You might want to take that argument to the sturgis forum, where what you're talking about is actually common practice.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

You might want to take that argument to the sturgis forum, where what you're talking about is actually common practice.

I didn't know we were pointing fingers here.

 

[RedDog]

I am. If it works for them, and it does, I'm not complaining. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who has heard the argument of dynamics versus loudness. At this point it's a tired mantra used mainly by old audio snobs and new kids with a GS membership who read to much into propaganda. The point you keep reiterating is preaching to the choir. We know what dynamics are. Any mastering engineer knows loudness isn't mastering. The last thing we need here is for some new guy to come along and read too much into someone's rehashed rant and take it as law.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

I am. If it works for them, and it does, I'm not complaining. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who has heard the argument of dynamics versus loudness. At this point it's a tired mantra used mainly by old audio snobs and new kids with a GS membership who read to much into propaganda. The point you keep reiterating is preaching to the choir. We know what dynamics are. Any mastering engineer knows loudness isn't mastering. The last thing we need here is for some new guy to come along and read too much into someone's rehashed rant and take it as law.

This isn't a conversation between you and me. This forum ranks up pretty high on Google etc when you search info on stuff like this. You might know this shit as do hundreds and thousands of others across the world. THEY are not the one's looking for information on forums or help with their latest mix because it's not as punchy or loud as commercial counter parts, or whatever.

It's the 'new guys' not choir that need this information. And when you are hungry for information you might not have the necessary critisism to filter that information.. Just because someone has +1200 posts on a internet forum doesn't mean that he isn't full of shit.

So, my apologies if this is bothersome to you. But there is a reason why it keeps repeated over, and over, and over, and over again.

 

[Morgan C]

I like X better. And it seems like that's the majority opinion (although slight).

Especially for metal, I don't want dynamics. I'm not always in an ideal listening environment - usually I'm not - and if I'm having to ride the volume knob the whole song to hear things (Porcupine Tree's "The Incident" I'm looking at you), it's not enjoyable. Plus, the squashed mix sounds much more coherent, glued, to me. The modern day tape saturation. Of course there's a limit, I don't like audible clipping, I don't like murdered drum transients, but volume maximisation and 'squashing' is not inherently evil. Ever listened to something on the radio, loved it, looked it up when you got home and gone "huh, this sounded a lot more exciting on the radio when it was compressed to fuck"?

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

I like X better. And it seems like that's the majority opinion (although slight).

Especially for metal, I don't want dynamics. I'm not always in an ideal listening environment - usually I'm not - and if I'm having to ride the volume knob the whole song to hear things (Porcupine Tree's "The Incident" I'm looking at you), it's not enjoyable. Plus, the squashed mix sounds much more coherent, glued, to me. The modern day tape saturation. Of course there's a limit, I don't like audible clipping, I don't like murdered drum transients, but volume maximisation and 'squashing' is not inherently evil. Ever listened to something on the radio, loved it, looked it up when you got home and gone "huh, this sounded a lot more exciting on the radio when it was compressed to fuck"?

I guess that just like everything, it comes down to taste. It's not black and white.

My basic feeling when listening to the radio is "what the fuck's wrong with this thing!? And where does the music go everytime vocals kick in?"

For me the eye opener was some years ago when I heard my own work on the radio for the first time. I knew what it was supposed to sound like. Damn, that was interesting to say the least.

As I've stated before, the loudness isn't the problem. That's all fine and dandy. The mentality to compensate elements in the mix in order to achieve loudness.. That's the problem.

I do a mix that to me compliments the music. If the band wants it super loud, it's the ME's headache. But I personally will not compromise my work for such a stupid reason. That's everyones own choice of course. That's a different line for everybody.

Of course, If you are the mix engineer as well as the mastering engineer, all bets are off. You are fuck'd already.

E: Now that Death Magnetic came up, I think it's actually a cool concept. It's so over the top that it becomes almost awesome. It's surreal listening to whisper of a vocal + acoustic guitar. Then BAM! Nine million tracks of drum, bass and guitar and vocals jump up.. ... .. and nothing. Nothing happens. In a way, that's pretty awesome.