Mars now!

[neuroticandroid]

Okay, i don't know how popular this topic is among Dark Tranquillity fans, but i'll give it a try.

The technology to colonize Mars has existed for years, but regrettably the political will hasn't. During the cold war, a lot of space technology was developed by NASA and by whatever space organization the USSR had (i'm unfortunately ignorant on that matter). But since the cold war political leaders have seemed to think there's no need for that anymore.

Now, a lot of ideas have appeared and a lot of scifi books have been written on the colonization of Mars, some better than others (Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy is especially good: well-written, interesting and plausible; but i digress), but nobody seems to be doing anything. At this pace, we'll kill ourselves and make Earth inhospitable before even landing a manned spaceship on Mars.

Anywho, i wanted to know what other people (and smart people, as i never get tired of saying this board has) think of the matter. What are your thoughts/opinions/wishes?

hmm, how do i approach this one? how about plausibility? first of all, a trip to mars would take at least 6 months on even the fastest spacecraft on earth. so you have to take into account feeding passengers, oxygen/h2o needs (although i know that the space shuttle's liquid fuel is hydrogen peroxide based, so the resultant from the chremical reaction that burns off the extra o2 molecule is water) and the effects of 6 months travel through zero-gravity on human beings ( i've heard cosmonauts on-board russian space stations for long periods of time come back with a form of osteoporosis).
once you get to mars, you'll need plenty of o2 because it's atmosphere is co2 and the atmospheric pressure is less than 1% of earth's. furthermore, the wild temperature swings from well below -150 centigrade to around 30 centigrade in summer during the day would be nearly intolerable for any human being. water is nowhere on the planet, at least not in liquid form, so "farming" on the planet would be nearly impossible. therefore, colonization of the red planet, at least at this point in history would be highly improbable, although i wouldn't say impossible. give it another 50-100 years, maybe then we'll be able to live on mars. http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/mars.html

that said, one of the best sci-fi book adaptations on tv ever, was the martian chronicles by ray bradbury starring rock hudson and a bunch of other actors who were popular during the 70s. great viewing, if you have about 6 hours.

 

[Magrathean]

hmm, how do i approach this one? how about plausibility? first of all, a trip to mars would take at least 6 months on even the fastest spacecraft on earth. so you have to take into account feeding passengers, oxygen/h2o needs (although i know that the space shuttle's liquid fuel is hydrogen peroxide based, so the resultant from the chremical reaction that burns off the extra o2 molecule is water)

All of this comes down to funding, and that has previously been discussed. If governments funded space travel instead of wars, all of this would be solved.

and the effects of 6 months travel through zero-gravity on human beings ( i've heard cosmonauts on-board russian space stations for long periods of time come back with a form of osteoporosis).

Yes, this is also an issue. Ummmm, medical research? You also forgot to mention the fact that Mars's gravity is 0.3 g (as opposed to Earth's 1 g and space's 0 g).

once you get to mars, you'll need plenty of o2 because it's atmosphere is co2 and the atmospheric pressure is less than 1% of earth's.

That's why you send plants.

furthermore, the wild temperature swings from well below -150 centigrade to around 30 centigrade in summer during the day would be nearly intolerable for any human being.

Thermal suits and domed (= isolated) cities.

water is nowhere on the planet, at least not in liquid form, so "farming" on the planet would be nearly impossible.

Melt the poles. Also, there are rumors about underground water reserves.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/mars.html

I'll check that out. Thanks.

 

[Dark_Silence]

I cant imagine myself living on another planet at all. As it was said before, I think we should first try to fix the problems on the earth...
If people are not able to respect the environnment on the Earth, they would as well end up fucking up another planet too. We should better spend money on educating kids to be environement friendly, no to pollute, and not to destroy the earth... And trying to have an "environment clean" economy...
I know that anyway the temperature on Earth will not go down and will probabily still rise some more, but why wouldnt we try to stop it, try to use clean energy like windmills, water energy or sun energy? If those problems are no resolved first, i think they would reappear anywhere else the humans go!


But the worst of it would be the cost to make Mars fittable for human live... i dont wish to live in a anstronaut suit all the time, nor do i want to live in closed cities or something with canned air in it ( i hate the feel of the air we get to breathe in airplaines, it feels like old not so fresh oxygen). It would just feel like a prison, and look sad... There are no vegetations, no animals, nothing... well maybe we could create Genetically Modified Organisms that could adapt to life over there, but I dont want to live in an artificial world... with no forests to take a breathe of fresh air and have some peace from time to time?

I guess, even if we put those bacteria that make oxygen, it would take so many time until the planet is really fit for human life (the earth also took a long time being habitable)... Maybe there are a few crazy people that would not mind living that kind of isolated/prefabricated life. But it doesnt sound too cool to me...

The 6 months travel would be kind of boring, and probabily hard to organise... To bring entire families, with their goods (furnitures, food / drink for the travel, eventual domestic pets,...). You would need a uge spaceship, and it would also probabily cost a lot to build a vehicule that would be confortable enough for a 6months travel, locked inside something, without any way to go outside for so long... better not have claustrophobia

Oh and speaking of food, we would have to find a way to get food on Mars, to cultivate things and bringing animals... That would be like moving the whole earth content over there, it would take so many years... And also you would need some industries that can make all the things we use here, like computers, furnitures,clothes,... because you cant import them from the earth every time you need something... And as there are no forests, no life, and as the ground of Mars is probabily not composed as the one of the earth, it would be kind of hard to make all those things over there...
Industries create pollution. The planet is not even fit for life yet, and it would already be distroyed by pollution...

It would cost a lot of money preparing the planet, and for something we are not even sure if it will be possible or not. And imagine all the people that would have to work on that projet.... it would cost a lot as well for technology develloppement as for paying all the guys who work on the project... And it would take a long time... Maybe if people would actually spend centuries and centuries preparing the planet for human life then it would maybe be possible

 

[Taliesin]

What I like about UC's thinking is the focus on solutions, but often his "solutions" just wont work.
The Biosphere experiments were mentioned, even here on earth we're still unable to create a working biosphere, so we cant dream to make one work on Mars.
But let's suppose one day we can and we could build domed cities and all, how to you haul all the material over there? Do you know what it costs to bring a 1t satellite into earth's orbit? Now think about the mass of stuff you'd need to build those domed cities. Even a small dome would either weigh tons, or at least be kinda large and difficult to transport.
We could of course not transport the domes, but the machines that make them and mine the ressources there, if we can, but do you have any idea what those machines would weigh or what it would cost to devellop machines that wouldnt weigh as much?

You say we should bring plants, but plants consist mostly of water and water is very heavy. We could hope to use the ground on Mars, only bring seeds and try to condensate the water of the atmosphere, but what do we breathe until the plants are grown? We had to bring lots of O2, or machines that would filter the air, both of which means more heavy equipment.

Of course you can develop lighter parts and bigger and better ships, but being an engineering student Im telling you, you cant buy everything. You can spend 10million to make a Formula1 race car half a second faster per lap, but no matter how much money you come up with, you cant make it go 5 seconds faster. I think it's the same here, Mars is not colonizable with today's technology, period

No matter how you turn it, it stays very risky, very costly and I have still to see the gain of this for anyone. Even if there was peace everywhere, I doubt the money would go into the building of newer and bigger space ships so we could colonize Mars

 

[La Rocque]

People think science will solve everything but whatever vehicle used to go to Mars can not carry enough fuel to return to Earth -
I know this is a far from now thought but in order for the human race to survive, we must get out of this part of the universe as someday day our sun will do the red giant thing and there will be no more planets around here -

 

[Taliesin]

We still have several billion years until that happens though Im sure we'll have found some way to extinct ourselves until then already

 

[QRV]

Aye, i've thought about that too. Well, we would finish destroying all sea life, and the oceans are already too polluted, but sure, we could build there. Underwater colonies wouldn't face natural disasters, would allow vast scientific study and would pose a challenge as interesting as martian colonies. I'm all for that idea. Should i / do you want to start a thread about that?

That be cool. Do you know any bibliography on this matter?

 

[Magrathean]

If people are not able to respect the environnment on the Earth, they would as well end up fucking up another planet too. We should better spend money on educating kids to be environement friendly, no to pollute, and not to destroy the earth...

Yes. But think about who would be sent to Mars: at first, scientists, builders, experts in their field, educated people. Then maybe tests could be run to decide who goes to Mars to populate it, or maybe colonizers would have to undergo basic educational programs involving everything you said. That would be a nice solution, i think. Like i said before, Mars is a great opportunity to create a new society and be careful enough not to go wrong in all the things we've gone wrong in for the last 6K years.

And trying to have an "environment clean" economy...

Interesting. A similar idea can be found on my all-time favorite sci-fi novel. What does your idea of an environment-clean economy consist of?

I know that anyway the temperature on Earth will not go down and will probabily still rise some more, but why wouldnt we try to stop it, try to use clean energy like windmills, water energy or sun energy? If those problems are no resolved first, i think they would reappear anywhere else the humans go!

First: Even if we used all the money in the world for that, i don't think we'd make much progress. Pollution is already there, and, even if we stop adding to it, what is already there will continue to damage the ozone layer, the atmosphere, the oceans, everything. Some chemicals take years or centuries to disappear. By that time, Mars colonization will be long overdue, Earth will have many other unsolvable problems (like overpopulation, mass extinction of many species, wars (with biological, chemical and nuclear warfare) and famine), and there won't be enough resources to even build a ship and send it to the moon, let alone Mars.

Second: So what if we overheat Mars? The average temperature there is several dozen degrees below H2O freezing point. Our best terraforming efforts would probably rise it up to just above freezing point in many decades. We could use the extra push. Seriously, though, Mars isn't polluted right now and we could start a new society where ecology were as important as, say, money is today in the western world.

But the worst of it would be the cost to make Mars fittable for human live... i dont wish to live in a anstronaut suit all the time, nor do i want to live in closed cities or something with canned air in it ( i hate the feel of the air we get to breathe in airplaines, it feels like old not so fresh oxygen). It would just feel like a prison, and look sad... There are no vegetations, no animals, nothing... well maybe we could create Genetically Modified Organisms that could adapt to life over there, but I dont want to live in an artificial world... with no forests to take a breathe of fresh air and have some peace from time to time?

Good point. Indeed, the first few decades would be something like living in a prison and doing community work without being paid. But after Mars were terraformed it would have forests, rivers, canyons, valleys, hell, i don't know, just about everything -- and in much, much larger scale than on Earth.

The 6 months travel would be kind of boring, and probabily hard to organise... To bring entire families, with their goods (furnitures, food / drink for the travel, eventual domestic pets,...). You would need a uge spaceship, and it would also probabily cost a lot to build a vehicule that would be confortable enough for a 6months travel, locked inside something, without any way to go outside for so long... better not have claustrophobia

Not boring if they are spent training, planning and getting to know the people around you. In the hypothetical scenario i imagine, they wouldn't send entire families, but rather a few dozen "crazy" people who wouldn't mind leaving Earth forever to go to the planet they love more than their home planet (maybe young people who haven't found a lover yet and don't have so much to lose if they leave Earth). So you wouldn't need so much space, food or fuel as you say. And why hard to organize? According to the most optimistic posts i've read here, we still have at least twenty years to plan it. No, i don't think six months are too hard to plan carefully when you have two decades to plan them.

Oh and speaking of food, we would have to find a way to get food on Mars, to cultivate things and bringing animals... That would be like moving the whole earth content over there, it would take so many years...

I suppose we would get the food from plants in the beginning. I'm not exactly thrilled by the idea of becoming a vegetarian, but i see it as a minor sacrifice for a great good. Eventually we would create a breathable atmosphere of, say, 500 millibars and be able to live in open cities, walk around without astronaut suits and eat things like beef and fish. With genetic engineering and cloning as powerfultools, i don't think we'd become hungry on Mars before that time (remember that there'd only be a few thousand, or maybe a few hundred thousand, people). So on a big spaceship we could send a few thousand plants and maybe small animals, and we could spend these two decades before the trip sending robotic missions and landing labs, and we could start cloning stuff once we get there.

And also you would need some industries that can make all the things we use here, like computers, furnitures,clothes,... because you cant import them from the earth every time you need something... And as there are no forests, no life, and as the ground of Mars is probabily not composed as the one of the earth, it would be kind of hard to make all those things over there...
Industries create pollution. The planet is not even fit for life yet, and it would already be distroyed by pollution...

Good point there. Well, massive investment and quick construction of robotically-run, environmentally-powered factories (an idea i've heard several times involves using windmills (yes, there's wind on Mars, and even planetary dust-storms) to produce electricity from mechanical energy: free, self-maintained and clean) would be the key point here.

It would cost a lot of money preparing the planet, and for something we are not even sure if it will be possible or not. And imagine all the people that would have to work on that projet.... it would cost a lot as well for technology develloppement as for paying all the guys who work on the project... And it would take a long time... Maybe if people would actually spend centuries and centuries preparing the planet for human life then it would maybe be possible

Governments have that much money. If only they'd use it for science-related things (space colonization, technology, paying scientists, education) instead of wars and shit, all of this would be possible. And hell, i don't know about you, but i really love Mars, and i wouldn't mind working for two decades without being paid (as long as i had food and a house) if it meant going to Mars. And obviously nobody would have a salary there at first (and if we manage to create that eco-economics (to use Kim Stanley Robinson's term) you mentioned and finally get rid of capitalism once and for all maybe we wouldn't ever need currency that we can't grow on the martian soil, like the ancient chinese or aztecs).

 

[Magrathean]

The Biosphere experiments were mentioned, even here on earth we're still unable to create a working biosphere, so we cant dream to make one work on Mars.
But let's suppose one day we can and we could build domed cities and all, how to you haul all the material over there? Do you know what it costs to bring a 1t satellite into earth's orbit? Now think about the mass of stuff you'd need to build those domed cities. Even a small dome would either weigh tons, or at least be kinda large and difficult to transport.
We could of course not transport the domes, but the machines that make them and mine the ressources there, if we can, but do you have any idea what those machines would weigh or what it would cost to devellop machines that wouldnt weigh as much?

Again, i never said it wouldn't require massive investment. But think about it this way: When you invest a few million bucks to set a store, at first it seems like a lot of money, but eventually the revenue is far greater than the initial investment. Obviously, making the initial investment and then letting things run by themselves is a strategy destined to failure, but even with continued investment (and the initial one would be the largest, i reckon) the revenue will be greater, i think. Not only could interplanetary commerce be established once Mars is terraformed and colonized, but the reward for colonizing it wouldn't be only an economic one: We would fix overpopulation+hunger, we would create a healthier / better-planned society and set an example for terran societies to follow, we would live in a much cleaner place, and we would develop an unimaginable deal of technology in the whole process, just to list a few things. Think of the possibilities, of the advantages!

No matter how you turn it, it stays very risky, very costly and I have still to see the gain of this for anyone.

*points above*

You say we should bring plants, but plants consist mostly of water and water is very heavy. We could hope to use the ground on Mars, only bring seeds and try to condensate the water of the atmosphere, but what do we breathe until the plants are grown? We had to bring lots of O2, or machines that would filter the air, both of which means more heavy equipment.

The main components of air are nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. There's nitrogen in the soil, CO2 in the atmosphere and hydrogen everywhere. Spend a couple of years sending machines and labs and stuff to Mars in robotic missions, and by the time humans have landed there you'll have whole, functional air-producing factories. Also, genetically-engineered plants might take only a couple of days to grow, depending on the technology we have then. Who knows? We could live in rovers or in the ship for a couple of days; after half a year in a spaceship, a few more days don't seem like much.

 

[Magrathean]

That be cool. Do you know any bibliography on this matter?

Not yet, but give me a couple of weeks and i'll come up with something.

 

[RampageSword]

Well, now we have Rincewind and 6SF and Zack and Rampage and a few more members. Let's see how this thread does if we give it a second chance.

I was there when that thread was first started. Sadly, I never took the time to really inform myself about the colonization of Mars because it is not a subject that interests me. So I'm afraid I don't have much to say on this matter.

 

[neuroticandroid]

That's why you send plant

Melt the poles. Also, there are rumors about underground water reserves.

I'll check that out. Thanks.

ok, another thing about mars, part of the reason it's called the red planet is it's surface. the martian "soil" is primarily composed of iron oxide, rust. most of earth's edible vegetation is not very rust resistant, so again, you'd need some form of hydroponic agriculture.
and just in case you skimmed over it, the martian atmosphere is only 1% as thick as earth's with less than 1% of that being water vapor and oxygen. and i don't recall the exact figure, but there's also a scarcity of nitrogen in the martian atmosphere which plants use in photosynthesis. so again, i'm not saying it's impossible as long as there's dreamers, but it's still highly unlikely.

 

[Magrathean]

ok, another thing about mars, part of the reason it's called the red planet is it's surface.

I thought that was the only reason.

the martian "soil" is primarily composed of iron oxide, rust. most of earth's edible vegetation is not very rust resistant, so again, you'd need some form of hydroponic agriculture.

Iron oxide isn't toxic to everything. Genetically-engineered plants would survive out there, as well as photosynthetic bacteria (which also make oxygen from CO2). And the martian soil is rich in nitrogen, which would also help plants grow.

and just in case you skimmed over it, the martian atmosphere is only 1% as thick as earth's with less than 1% of that being water vapor and oxygen. and i don't recall the exact figure, but there's also a scarcity of nitrogen in the martian atmosphere which plants use in photosynthesis. so again, i'm not saying it's impossible as long as there's dreamers, but it's still highly unlikely.

I didn't skim over it. If you'd read my posts you'd know that i commented more-or-less-extensively on this. The martian atmosphere contains carbon dioxide, from which oxygen can me made via photosynthesis. Hydrogen is everywhere, obviously. And, as i mentioned above on this post (and several times before on other posts), there's nitrogen in the soil. So you have the three basic components of breathable air. As for the thickness of the atmosphere (which i also commented on before), releasing photosynthetic oxygen and the soil's nitrogen into the atmosphere would thicken it considerably. Part of the water in the poles could be vaporized too. And i'm not completely sure about this, but i believe Mars has enough gravity to maintain an atmosphere of 0.5 atm or more. At the very least, we would be able to create conditions similar to those on mountain summits on Earth, which are habitable.

 

[Dark_Silence]

I thought that was the only reason.
Iron oxide isn't toxic to everything. Genetically-engineered plants would survive out there

First you need to check if that kind of plants are not dangerous for human beings. There are so many debates on the subject ...

Mars is a great opportunity to create a new society and be careful enough not to go wrong in all the things we've gone wrong

Yeah, but the problem is, that there are too many stupid people who would make it not so easy... And people are naturally lazy, attracted by competition, dont want to work more if they are not paid more, and so on... so a communist society would never work. The ideal woulb be to find the middle between capitalism, and socialism. Something like people could start their own businness, employ others, but there would still be social help for doctors, medicines, hospitals or for people who dont earn much money.
You know, communism would never work... Would you still go to work every day, if you are still paid or paid the same no matter what you do (how hard or how much you do)?. Imagine if the government keep losing money paying people who dont work, thus dont produce anything for living, or not enough for all the people in the country...
Always there are some people that want to be better than the other (competition), and show what they have to others, they would find way to get more money, and ruin all the communist system. Or the gouvernment can abuse from their power, since they are in charge of everything and control everything, and establish the rules for giving houses to people, giving jobs to people, giving land to farm to people... I think that every country that I know had a communist government, had a dictator as chief...

Sadly, I never took the time to really inform myself about the colonization of Mars because it is not a subject that interests me

Me neither, and I am neither too interested in the subject, but i had some reason why I think it is not really possible that I wanted to explain.

 

[Dark_Silence]

What does your idea of an environment-clean economy consist of?

First, produce energy with sun/wind/waterforce... I mean energy that doesnt make any arm to the nature when being produced, like carbon or nuclear centrals. Solar captors are pretty expensive to install at first, but after, you regain the money with reducing your electricity facture. Furthermore, they dont damage the nature.

Try to find another fuel than oil fur cars. I know ols rotten grass produces gas, so why not trying to make a carburant out of it?. Or cars that work with batteries. Some exists, but the batteries dont allow a really long distance drinving, and takes some time to charge. But people who live in towns or who dont use the car for a long drive could very well use that kind of cars. Also maybe if the common tansports like tramwas, subways, trains... had better connections and better schedule - maybe better prices too (I pay 40,20 euros for a tramway/bus month-ticket here!!)- it would bring more people to use them.

Industries are quite a bigger problem there. Ok we could say, install special filters on the chimneys to filter the gases that all the factories product, and oblige them to also use clean energy, but it would cost a lot.

For farming, not using chemicals stuff to make fruits/vegetables grow. We should favor bio-agriculture. It is better for the health, and for the earth.

The recycling thing is good. Make new stuff with old one is better than just throw them away, like making new plastic / glass bottles with old ones. Do not take plasctic bags when you go shopping. You can have some tissue bags, and use those one. Reduce the plastic packaging on food... it would be better if we used boxes that we would bring in the store, then put fruit / meat,... in differents boxes, and when they are empty, wash them.

There are so many things that could be imagined, but certainly it would mean to change our habits, and to invest some money. i guess the main reason governments dont really do something to favorise that, is that it would be nocive to the economy of the country, at least at first...

 

[Taliesin]

When you invest a few million bucks to set a store, at first it seems like a lot of money, but eventually the revenue is far greater than the initial investment

What revenue? You spend billions making a better tent and a barely breathable atmosphere inside, then what?
Where are you gonna sell your genetically engineered plants that only grow on Mars?
To whom are you gonna sell your new spaceship technology?

Not only could interplanetary commerce be established once Mars is terraformed and colonized, but the reward for colonizing it wouldn't be only an economic one: We would fix overpopulation+hunger, we would create a healthier / better-planned society and set an example for terran societies to follow, we would live in a much cleaner place, and we would develop an unimaginable deal of technology in the whole process, just to list a few things. Think of the possibilities, of the advantages!

Fix overpopulation and hunger? Do you have any idea how many people in total we brought into orbit? Maybe a thousand tops, I dare say a lot less and you talk of curing hunger by putting people on Mars?
Dude, I like the idea and I have nothing against a romantic half hour of creating a thought and a lot of "what if we could..." but dont forget what you've spun here: A dream. Dont talk about it as if we were one step away from colonizing Mars, we're not. Dream all you like and the ones who feel like you might dream with you, but dont put your dream there as if it was a carefully thought-through plan, because all you're gonna get is cruel realists like me who're gonna pick your dream apart, piece by piece, and that's just not a nice thing to witness

 

[Magrathean]

First you need to check if that kind of plants are not dangerous for human beings. There are so many debates on the subject ...

Oh, that "debate" has been going on forever. Basically it's uninformed people who don't really know shit about genetically engineered plants versus people who do. As a genetics/genomics student, i can tell you that they are completely safe. This is backed up by the fact that there hasn't been a single reported incident involving secondary effects or danger, and genetically-engineered plants have been around for decades.

Yeah, but the problem is, that there are too many stupid people who would make it not so easy... And people are naturally lazy, attracted by competition, dont want to work more if they are not paid more, and so on... so a communist society would never work. The ideal woulb be to find the middle between capitalism, and socialism. Something like people could start their own businness, employ others, but there would still be social help for doctors, medicines, hospitals or for people who dont earn much money.
You know, communism would never work... Would you still go to work every day, if you are still paid or paid the same no matter what you do (how hard or how much you do)?. Imagine if the government keep losing money paying people who dont work, thus dont produce anything for living, or not enough for all the people in the country...
Always there are some people that want to be better than the other (competition), and show what they have to others, they would find way to get more money, and ruin all the communist system. Or the gouvernment can abuse from their power, since they are in charge of everything and control everything, and establish the rules for giving houses to people, giving jobs to people, giving land to farm to people... I think that every country that I know had a communist government, had a dictator as chief...

*sighs* Will people ever realize what socialism is about? Listen, Lenin and Stalin didn't understand what Marx was trying to say and now people think that leninism/stalinism is communism/socialism. It's not. In real socialism, everyone starts with the same opportunities but is not paid the same regardless of how hard they work. Hard workers are paid more than average workers, and lazy people aren't paid at all. So yes, there is motivation to work hard. Also, you wouldn't send any lazy bastard to Mars. You'd send scientists, workers, smart people, working people, people who would be willing to dedicate all their lives to hard work and to the creation of something great. Finally, i never mentioned socialism. I only said that we would be able to create a new society. Yes, i am a socialist (actually, i have my own ideas, which are largely based on socialism), but it is unlikely that socialism will ever be tried again, especially if people continue to think that it consists of the crap the Soviet Union did.

Look, there have been good leaders in the past. Not every single one of them is horrible. Find a few good leaders and make some sort of council where everyone has the same power and nobody is someone else's friend (so that alliances aren't formed) and it's much harder to abuse power.

I'm not saying it's going to be perfect, only that it could be better than the shit we have on this planet.

 

[Magrathean]

First, produce energy with sun/wind/waterforce... I mean energy that doesnt make any arm to the nature when being produced, like carbon or nuclear centrals. Solar captors are pretty expensive to install at first, but after, you regain the money with reducing your electricity facture. Furthermore, they dont damage the nature.

I agree. I mentioned wind power before. We could get water power as soon as the poles are melted and whatever underground water there is is pumped up and the surface temperature is above zero degrees. Sun power would be more difficult to obtain, as the most-effective solar plants we currently have can only take advantage of around 30% (yes, i've seen figures) of the sunlight they receive (and that's on Earth; Mars receives much less sunlight, although the construction of an orbital mirror could make up for this if we manage to do that; but no, i'm not completely convinced that this isn't just sci-fi yet).

Another good option would be to turn radiation into useful energy. The martian atmosphere currently isn't thick enough to block solar radiation, so we could use that while we thicken it.

Try to find another carburant than oil fur cars. I know ols rotten grass produces gas, so why not trying to make a carburant out of it?. Or cars that work with batteries. Some exists, but the batteries dont allow a really long distance drinving, and takes some time to charge. But people who live in towns or who dont use the car for a long drive could very well use that kind of cars. Also maybe if the common tansports like tramwas, subways, trains... had better connections and better schedule - maybe better prices too (I pay 40,20 euros for a tramway/bus month-ticket here!!)- it would bring more people to use them.

Again, i agree. Efficient public transport is the solution, as far as i'm concerned. A cheap transport network run with electric energy produced by free sources such as wind/water power would definitely be the solution.

Industries are quite a bigger problem there. Ok we could say, install special filters on the chimneys to filter the gases that all the factories product, and oblige them to also use clean energy, but it would cost a lot.

Hmmmm... Wind-powered factories, maybe? And force every factory to have at least one recycling center to avoid pollution from spare/waste materials?

For farming, not using chemicals stuff to make fruits/vegetables grow. We should favor bio-agriculture. It is better for the health, and for the earth.

Yes. And genetic engineering. It doesn't pollute, and it increases yield by far.

The recycling thing is good. Make new stuff with old one is better than just throw them away, like making new plastic / glass bottles with old ones. Do not take plasctic bags when you go shopping. You can have some tissue bags, and use those one. Reduce the plastic packaging on food... it would be better if we used boxes that we would bring in the store, then put fruit / meat,... in differents boxes, and when they are empty, wash them.

Yet another really good idea. And Mars would be so cold that there wouldn't be much of the kind of life that makes food inedible (ants, yeast, other fermenting organisms), so there wouldn't be much of a problem with using boxes rather than sealed containers. I'm liking this more and more.

There are so many things that could be imagined, but certainly it would mean to change our habits, and to invest some money. i guess the main reason governments dont really do something to favorise that, is that it would be nocive to the economy of the country, at least at first...

Well, fortunately Mars isn't a country (yet). And terraforming and its consequences come to a point where it doesn't really matter how much it costs as long as it doesn't leave Earth with absolutely no money. And habit-changing is good. Difficult, but good. I'm all for it.

 

[Magrathean]

What revenue? You spend billions making a better tent and a barely breathable atmosphere inside, then what?
Where are you gonna sell your genetically engineered plants that only grow on Mars?
To whom are you gonna sell your new spaceship technology?

Please, not another capitalist. Why the fuck do you want to sell everything? I already mentioned a lot of problems colonizing Mars would solve. Money isn't everything. It's not just building a tent with barely-breathable air inside; it's about making the whole planet breathable, and not barely. It's not about selling spaceship technology; it's about making fast ships to make interplanetary transport+economy possible. It's not about selling plants; it's about eating them.

Fix overpopulation and hunger? Do you have any idea how many people in total we brought into orbit? Maybe a thousand tops, I dare say a lot less and you talk of curing hunger by putting people on Mars?

I don't see your point. We would obviously put millions of people on Mars (just not at the beginning because it would screw everything up). And one of the main reasons there's hunger on Earth is bad administration/handling/sharing of food, and another important reason is that a lot of crops/etc are damaged by natural disasters and pollution. We have an entire planet up there which is still totally clean. And you say it wouldn't fix hunger?

Dude, I like the idea and I have nothing against a romantic half hour of creating a thought and a lot of "what if we could..." but dont forget what you've spun here: A dream. Dont talk about it as if we were one step away from colonizing Mars, we're not. Dream all you like and the ones who feel like you might dream with you, but dont put your dream there as if it was a carefully thought-through plan, because all you're gonna get is cruel realists like me who're gonna pick your dream apart, piece by piece, and that's just not a nice thing to witness

We are one step away from colonizing Mars. A big step which involves decades of planning and research and a lot of money, but still only one step. But we will never take it as long as the majority of people thinks we can't take it. And i can't think of many things (maybe two or three tops) you've mentioned which i haven't countered, so i don't see how you're picking my dream apart successfully.

 

[Taliesin]

Uh, ok, decades of research, planning and several billion dollars of funding for all of it, without so much as a rough idea where they should come from, that's not "one step away" in my book.

Im not a capitalist, more like a realist and reality is that we live in a capitalist society. As long as changing from capitalism to something else isnt a tenth of your "one step", that's a fact you may have to deal with as well in your plans.

I don't see your point. We would obviously put millions of people on Mars (just not at the beginning because it would screw everything up). And one of the main reasons there's hunger on Earth is bad administration/handling/sharing of food, and another important reason is that a lot of crops/etc are damaged by natural disasters and pollution. We have an entire planet up there which is still totally clean. And you say it wouldn't fix hunger?

The point is that over the last 50 years, only several hundred people were shot into space and you tell me we're one step away of selling bus tickets to Mars for millions? Even you should see the odds of that happening

We could have built a space station on the moon, just to try out some things but we didnt. It would be a hundred times cheaper than building it on mars, moon soil would be less toxic, we could fly there all the time and not just once every two years, but still, no one is building anything on the moon and do you know why? Because it's fucking expensive and there's nothing to win there.

Yea, yea you've countered everything Ive said because you're too caught up in your dream to see the problem and that's ok really, what I have a problem with is how you sell your dream as a real plan because that's just pathetic.