Masculinity
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Norsemaiden
barbarian
judas69 said:
Good idea! First, consider this!
http://www.newworldcelts.org/celtic_women_of_import.htm
lol!
judas69 said:
Absolutely! This is a stunning phenomenon to witness here in the US. Not a few books have been written on the subject, ranging from some attacking the 'radical feminist agenda' behind it to some simply pointing out that the culture itself has taken on a decidedly feminine flavor.
You frequently hear of Women's issues, Women's heath(care), Women's struggles, etc. There are no male equivalent discussions...ever. The TV newsprograms and ever more numerous talkshows are notoriously female-slanted in their subject matter(and hosts for that matter) and attitudes(The Oprah-ization anyone??). Even the Military has assumed a much 'kinder-gentler' image and approach(internally) in many ways to accomodate its increasing female membership.
It has been theorized that much of the criminal overperscription of drugs such as Ridalin(sp?) is a horribly misguided reaction to the natural rambunctiousness of young males. They are just too...boyish it seems.
Today, activities like Hunting or shooting in general, once immensely popular with young males, are on the wane. Suffice to say such activity is far too "violent" for our fem-friendly culture. Males in general are far more "sensitive" and outwardly emotional than ever before. Not long ago, one would be hard-pressed to find men crying in public. Now it seems one can hardly turn on the tube and males from sports figures to politicians seem to weep at the drop of a hat.
Males are demonstrably more "image" conscious. It could only be in a culture such as ours that the so-called "metrosexual" could come to life. Males now think nothing of excessive grooming and primping in a most unmasculine fashion.
Even popular music is laced with hyper-emotional lamentation and declaration. The "Emo" phenomenon is certainly rather feminine in mind-set. I could go on...
Of course, in many ways, boys are still acting like boys, etc. nature will see to that. Still, the pressure from the culture for males to be more sensitive, compassionate, tolerant, peaceful or what have you, is enormous and pervasive. It is all quite unseemly to me...I grew up in a very different world. It sounds cliched but men were men, women women(god I sound OLD
). I know, I am a dinosaur - but so be it!OldScratch said:
I honestly wonder how many more males than females are prescribed Ritalin.
If it's an extremely disproportionate amount, and they have no medical basis for explaining such a discrepancy (which I bet is the case, as ADD and ADHD are suspicious conditions to begin with) I think it's fair to say your point is probably more accurate than not. Assuming it is, I think it's safe to say society, families, teachers are more intrested today in surpressing natural male tendencies for the sake of a movement or eliminating a hassle, than to actually make an effort to find a root cause of why a child is behaving a certain way, create an outlet (instead of taking it away) or at least make an attempt to try less dangerous treatment first. I mean, all this could boil down to nothing, or something as simple as a reaction to a certain type of food or chemical.
I haven't studied this but common sense will tell you that prescribing Ritalin (now a street drug) to children with developing brains, can only lead to cognitive trouble down the road and perhaps even induce certain types of behaviour previously unknown in the child.
It's also funny that in general, these drugs are only tested for a period of weeks to months, and yet prescribed indefinitely. I don't mean to go off topic here, but I think again, for the sake of a man-hating movement, many of today's males may well end up emotionally, and cognitively, scared.
OldScratch said:
I shutter to think what message Oprah (a scorned woman hereself) and others like her, disseminate daily to drone-like female housewifes around the country who think only on emotional terms and superficial levels, having not the time (nor real desire I suspect) to pratice the art of critical thinking, especially if it goes against something they want to believe is true (maybe to justify their own personal stories).
I only say this because my own mother fits that ignorant mold. A personal story: many years ago my brother and I had come home from school and she basically gave us shit, like we were "soon to be criminals" or something. Basically, she started ranting on us about how she'd disown us and wouldn't pick us up at the jail etc. Keep in mind we were like 10, and she was clearly irrate. I still remember this and wonder if any of these shows had something to do with this very off the wall and unprovoked attack.
I wonder how many young males across the country are not aloud to play video games, use waterguns, or watch anything more than a G-rated movie all subsequent to an episode of Oprah and all for fear of encouraging the beast residing within all males. I suspect many.
Norsemaiden
barbarian
You make many good points in your post Old Scratch.
My previous point about the Celtic women illustrated that women have been much stronger in the past than they are today, but the thing is that the men were very strong and masculine as well. The two sexes complimented eachother excellently and there was no rift or divide as has been created in our society today.
Women as well as men have been disempowered as a result of the perverse feminist ideology that creates mistrust and competition instead of improving life. Women being under pressure to be careerists and to consider that being a housewife or a mother is inferior to this, actually takes from women the very thing that makes women special. Men can't give birth. Their role is to be the breadwinner. When women take over the mens' roles the result is that the men feel unappreciated and redundant while at the same time they will view women as competitors and this results in aggression. Men used to know what they were for, what their expected role in life was, but now many are confused.
The media compounds this confusion with the hype of the meterosexual man. This concept is being sold as a product. Women are brain-polluted into wanting men like that and men are encouraged to become more feminine and to use products such as Old Scratch mentions - like face moisturisers and so on.
I suspect that some biological feminisation of men could have happened also as a result of hormone interrupters - chemicals like thalates for eg. - which prevent full maleness from occuring. When I see old black and white films, the men's voices seem as if they were a bit deeper in those days - but then maybe film makers now particularly choose actors with less deep voices.
An interesting observation is that in Mel Gibson's "Mad Max" there is a character called "Toe Cutter" who is like a Hells Angel. In the original version of the film his voice is very deep and masculine - giving him a whole different image somehow than in the newly edited version in which a conscious decision had been made to redub Toe Cutter's voice, making it a whole octave higher. There seems to have been a fear that because Toe Cutter is a villain in the film he shouldn't appear too cool.
I could start getting all socio-biolgical at this point and site evidence regarding the deepness of the croak of the frog and its relation to male dominance - but I will spare you all.
By the way - any guys here who feel you don't have such a low voice - don't worry because the average modern women probably prefer that and are scared off by extreme masculinity. I can cite evidence for this.
My previous point about the Celtic women illustrated that women have been much stronger in the past than they are today, but the thing is that the men were very strong and masculine as well. The two sexes complimented eachother excellently and there was no rift or divide as has been created in our society today.
Women as well as men have been disempowered as a result of the perverse feminist ideology that creates mistrust and competition instead of improving life. Women being under pressure to be careerists and to consider that being a housewife or a mother is inferior to this, actually takes from women the very thing that makes women special. Men can't give birth. Their role is to be the breadwinner. When women take over the mens' roles the result is that the men feel unappreciated and redundant while at the same time they will view women as competitors and this results in aggression. Men used to know what they were for, what their expected role in life was, but now many are confused.
The media compounds this confusion with the hype of the meterosexual man. This concept is being sold as a product. Women are brain-polluted into wanting men like that and men are encouraged to become more feminine and to use products such as Old Scratch mentions - like face moisturisers and so on.
I suspect that some biological feminisation of men could have happened also as a result of hormone interrupters - chemicals like thalates for eg. - which prevent full maleness from occuring. When I see old black and white films, the men's voices seem as if they were a bit deeper in those days - but then maybe film makers now particularly choose actors with less deep voices.
An interesting observation is that in Mel Gibson's "Mad Max" there is a character called "Toe Cutter" who is like a Hells Angel. In the original version of the film his voice is very deep and masculine - giving him a whole different image somehow than in the newly edited version in which a conscious decision had been made to redub Toe Cutter's voice, making it a whole octave higher. There seems to have been a fear that because Toe Cutter is a villain in the film he shouldn't appear too cool.
I could start getting all socio-biolgical at this point and site evidence regarding the deepness of the croak of the frog and its relation to male dominance - but I will spare you all.
By the way - any guys here who feel you don't have such a low voice - don't worry because the average modern women probably prefer that and are scared off by extreme masculinity. I can cite evidence for this.
judas69 said:
It is my understanding that boys are indeed presecribed Ritalin and the like at sometimes considerably higher rates than girls, within specific age groups in particular. Most of this is indeed ADD, ADHD related - questionable territory indeed, as noted! Overall, I cannot comment on the total prescription breakdown male to female, however, so it's really just an anecdotal example of something that clealry seems geared toward chemically suppressing the naturally more aggresive tendencies of males.
As Norsemaiden stated, the traditional masculinity of past ages has clearly been shelved in large part(in popular culture to be sure) in favor of a more sensitive, temperate male model - and so too the female role changed, although in many ways in the opposite direction. A role reversal of sorts is clear. Females now think nothing of engaging in behaviors often exclusively reserved for males(various professions, social behaviors, manner of conduct, certain sports, more coarsened speech and mannerisms, etc...they apparently belch a lot too
). Perhaps, the real debate is whether all of this is good/bad progress/regression. It is certainly strange to me.
I vividly recall, in the wake of "9/11" there was much made in America of the renewed appeal of 'manly' men,( ie. Fireman, Cops, Soldiers, etc.). Even the political discourse flirted openly with this re-discovered affinity for men who were masculine, skilled, more in the historical 'protector' image, etc. Suddenly, even toys and cartoons reflected this paradigm shift in attitudes.
Things have since shifted back with the whole "metro" business, increasingly tolerant attitudes toward even flamboyant homosexuality and what have you...but for a brief time males who were Men, not overgrown boys were back in style! For me, who fits much more comfortably in the traditional male category this was a welcome, if short-lived respite!
judas69 said:
Well, at one time that phrase was commonly used to describe the rugged, masculine archetype...these days it may indeed carry an altogether more, er...literal interpretation.
Øjeblikket
Member
Norsemaiden said:
I suppose you think effeminate homosexual men are 'confused' or 'abnormal', right?
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I think men in America today are under fire constantly, and they generally feel useless. I think college-aged males have it the worst. The anxiety about finding jobs is high. There are more female students, and they tend to do better, and it intimidates men. I feel as though no woman will ever want to marry me, as good women will mostly be self-sufficient. I could find a high school dropout who needs a breadwinner, but odds are that I won't even be able to provide, as the male working wage sucks these days. Women have all the power in romantic relationships, playing with them as they wish, and the result is a bunch of emotionally damaged, angry, afraid and confused men.
Things like the obsessions with Chuck Norris facts, the Alphabet of Manliness book, hyper-masculine heroes like Jack Bauer, etc. are men trying to cling to some sort of ideal. These don't even provide men their own sphere, as women are embracing these types of things too. I'd say that the whole metrosexual thing has subsided for the most part, but society is still feminized, if not outright dominated by women.
Men are being suppressed emotionally, and they have no outlets at the moment, not enough heroes or role models.
Things like the obsessions with Chuck Norris facts, the Alphabet of Manliness book, hyper-masculine heroes like Jack Bauer, etc. are men trying to cling to some sort of ideal. These don't even provide men their own sphere, as women are embracing these types of things too. I'd say that the whole metrosexual thing has subsided for the most part, but society is still feminized, if not outright dominated by women.
Men are being suppressed emotionally, and they have no outlets at the moment, not enough heroes or role models.
Norsemaiden
barbarian
Øjeblikket said:
Master O Lightning also points out that men are left confused by the feminisation of society - we are talking about normal heterosexual men. Presumably, the effeminate homosexual men have never had it so good. Assuming that you fit this description Ojeblikket perhapes you can tell us more. Yes I would say that homosexuality is "abnormal" in that "normality" is what most people do. If most men ever ended up homosexual, then that would be normal at such a time. Obviously some men are born naturally much more feminine than others, and there should be proportionately ever more men in society who show traits such as cowardice in battle, physical weakness, etc because women are not sexually selecting against them enough to keep these traits in check. (And because of lack of natural selection against the weak, and because war is dysgenic). This is one of the few down-sides of monogamy. The Celtic women could all go for getting pregnant by the studs and share them, while at the same time having a husband.
But are the "macho" type of homosexuals in the same category as the effeminate ones? They seem more as if they are just homosexual as a fetish, but it is not a subject one can ever get the truth on because there are PC reasons to deny that this is why apparantly masculine men are that way inclined. This is getting somewhat off topic! It seems highly probable that there is a lot of public relations trickery in the way homosexuality is presented to the public - to make it more tolerable. (Well you know how drawn I am to conspiracy theories...)
MasterOLightning said:
Excellent post. Its really about women entering every male domain, and doing just as well as any man. And now women have the capability to be a breadwinner, or even the breadwinner, they have quite a considerable amount of power. I would imagine the explosion of divorces over the last 20 years is a clear sign of this change. If women dont care for their husbands, they can easily survive, and with favorable legal laws, benefit from a divorce.
And can there be any heroes or role models in our sanitized society? Being a hero generally means there's something slightly wrong with you or different about you--the hero is not a normal member of society. Now, if anyone has any eccentricities, they're criticized by the media, talk-shows, etc.
Øjeblikket
Member
Norsemaiden said:
I understand that is your attempt at humor, but what follows from this by you is clearly bigotry. Any philosophy based on bigoted ideas is nothing more than an excuse to dismiss others different than yourself. Just so there is little opportunity for you to turn this into a three-ring flea circus, however, let me be clear: Yes, I do know some men that are effeminate and homosexual, it doesn't bother me if they respect that I'm not interested in them sexually, nor does their lifestyle bother them or create a sense of confusion. The effeminate homosexual men that I know are not confused or abnormal, they are simply being themselves because "traditional" roles have failed them.
Considering how many single men and women there are in this world today it seems juvenile to claim, for instance, that a man should not work and make his own dinner without feeling like he has to add to the planet's population.
What world do you live in where everyone is battling and physical characteristics are limited to weakness or strength? "Cowardice in battle"? What are you talking about? Women are responsible for keeping effeminate men in check? Wow.
Norsemaiden
barbarian
Effeminate men are born from women are they not? And do you agree that if women mate with effeminate men they will beget more such effeminate men, whereas if they choose only to mate with masculine men they should have sons more likely to be masculine? Am I really so wrong in this assumption? Anyone can be wrong about something - so if you can educate me I would appreciate it.
Why should it be an attempt at humour to ask you if you are effeminate? I am not attempting a joke. You sounded defensive about effeminate homosexuals so naturally I thought you could be one yourself. There is no reason to be offended either, unless you don't like such men.
I only mentioned cowardice in battle because throughout human evolution there have regularly been wars and the bravest men tend to get killed, thus increasing the genes for non-bravery (or quite possibly cautious behaviour not always cowardice). This affects the genes of the next generation.
I have to agree that was a very low blow Norsemaiden.
I also agree with Ojeblikket's statement that "The effeminate homosexual men that I know are not confused or abnormal, they are simply being themselves because "traditional" roles have failed them." Countless studies and reports show homosexuality to the entirety of the animal kingdom. I read a study yesterday that stated even some bees are homosexual. I suppose the problem with homosexuality in the human race, is our great advantage over the rest of the animal kingdom--culture. The western culture that used to accept homosexuality, stopped doing so with the adoption of the religion of a possibly repressed homosexual (Jesus--so some say).
Personally I just think many of us including me, are freaked out by so many open and effeminate homosexuals fluttering about these days.
And in reference to the last Norsemaiden post, there are effeminate straight men, just as there are masculine gay men.
I also agree with Ojeblikket's statement that "The effeminate homosexual men that I know are not confused or abnormal, they are simply being themselves because "traditional" roles have failed them." Countless studies and reports show homosexuality to the entirety of the animal kingdom. I read a study yesterday that stated even some bees are homosexual. I suppose the problem with homosexuality in the human race, is our great advantage over the rest of the animal kingdom--culture. The western culture that used to accept homosexuality, stopped doing so with the adoption of the religion of a possibly repressed homosexual (Jesus--so some say).
Personally I just think many of us including me, are freaked out by so many open and effeminate homosexuals fluttering about these days.
And in reference to the last Norsemaiden post, there are effeminate straight men, just as there are masculine gay men.
Norsemaiden
barbarian
I am sorry if I was rude and I swear that I really don't know what I said to cause offense - it was wholly unintentional, whatever it was.
Isn't it supposed to be women who are always getting offended by men, who don't have a clue what they did wrong?
Isn't the definition of "normal" that which is the norm as in that which is most common/frequent?
BloodSword
Member
I feel sorry for those who are confused as to what their true "identity" is. I'm probably going to get ripped for this,but, using War, a battle, a military campaign as an example; you are in a foxhole in Viet Nam with your "buddy" fighting for your life. I guarantee you I want a masculine male in their with me(one who would fight to the death) than someone who is "afraid" or cowardly. My experience with males who are "less masculine" or who adopt feminine traits are for lack of a better word, "pussys". They don't want to fight for what they believe in (if they believe in anything) They would rather "cut and run". Although, their is a minority of those I know, who would stand up(no pun intended). I believe it is as NorseMaiden points out genetic, but, also in the way we as men are raised. I was brought up(wrong or right) to "not cry" you know, "big boys don't cry if they fall and skin their knees. little girls do." And in my experiences that was true. All through my formative years and even as an adult it was always, whether it was playing football, working at school or a job "You can do better, be a man about it." While playing football in high school I cn remember a friend of mine failing at a certain play he was involved in, the coach gave him a verbal lashing, but his mom and dad said," that's alright it's only a game. If I messed up on the field not only would the coach have at me, but my dad would kick my ass. My friend never started a game as a player, and I developed into an All- State player. Those experiences carry over in humans. In my day( and still) men were men and women were women. Probably think I'm some kind of neandrethal caveman, so may be I am. I'm not concerned about being "sensitive" and "crying". I'm interested in respect and understanding, to those who deserve it. The media is a huge culprit in todays views of men and how we should act. If a woman wants to make more money than me I say Go for it, honey. If she is concerned about the "material" things in life as a priority, attach yourself to some "sensitive" guy who will give in to your every whim. If you want a man to protect you, take control of situations that are out of control, do the "little" things a man should do for a woman, and one who doesn't give a rats tutu about "facial exfoliation" or fancy creams and lotions but just being "clean" and properly dressed give me a call. But, no one will because I'm "out of style."
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I don't even think that the issue is more men being effeminate. It has to do with women entering men's traditional sphere. I see this as a huge problem. I think you can trace much of our problems with social stratification to women entering the workforce.
The problem is that women tend to not "marry down" to someone in a lower class. Women who are successful can limit the field to other equally or more successful men. So you end up with a lot of families of two capable breadwinners. The result is that you also have families with no capable breadwinner, or the couple combines to make what a man used to make. Women are taking the jobs that used to give the man an opportunity to support a family and then adding it to an already sufficient male's income so that they can meet their materialistic needs and have an upper class lifestyle.
It's these same women that then complain of being overburdened, often while they live in the suburbs, drive an SUV, and have a cleaning service.
The problem with masculinity today is that no one knows what it means. There are no great wars to fight in. Blue collar jobs are not admirable, if they even exist for much longer. For a long time, masculinity was required to run your farm to success. There were lots of physical tasks to be done, etc. Then things shift to industrial work, which was also perceived as man's sphere. It's easily forgotten that factory work was originally dominated by women and children. Men started feeling less useful, and the eventual result was that women were mostly forced back into the home so they could work in that sphere and men could remain the breadwinner. Our workplace today is the office, a place with no inherent manliness to it. It's likely to be 50/50 between the sexes. No masculinity is felt from this work, and male bonding doesn't take place to the same degree it did in other areas of work. There has been no push for women to get back in the home. It seems likely that this is because marriage ages are so much later. If women aren't getting married until they are 30-ish, they need to support themselves until that point. Of course the cause of women waiting to marry is that they know they can support themselves. Marriage is a matter of choice, where men have little leverage. Women can fuck around with as many bad guys and assholes as they want until they're 30 or so, then they expect to find the nice guy they've been shunning their whole lives to just marry her and be subserviant almost. The nice guy accepts because he's getting older too. He eventually sees the situation for what it is. He is still basically useless. Not much has changed for him since college.
The problem is that women tend to not "marry down" to someone in a lower class. Women who are successful can limit the field to other equally or more successful men. So you end up with a lot of families of two capable breadwinners. The result is that you also have families with no capable breadwinner, or the couple combines to make what a man used to make. Women are taking the jobs that used to give the man an opportunity to support a family and then adding it to an already sufficient male's income so that they can meet their materialistic needs and have an upper class lifestyle.
It's these same women that then complain of being overburdened, often while they live in the suburbs, drive an SUV, and have a cleaning service.
The problem with masculinity today is that no one knows what it means. There are no great wars to fight in. Blue collar jobs are not admirable, if they even exist for much longer. For a long time, masculinity was required to run your farm to success. There were lots of physical tasks to be done, etc. Then things shift to industrial work, which was also perceived as man's sphere. It's easily forgotten that factory work was originally dominated by women and children. Men started feeling less useful, and the eventual result was that women were mostly forced back into the home so they could work in that sphere and men could remain the breadwinner. Our workplace today is the office, a place with no inherent manliness to it. It's likely to be 50/50 between the sexes. No masculinity is felt from this work, and male bonding doesn't take place to the same degree it did in other areas of work. There has been no push for women to get back in the home. It seems likely that this is because marriage ages are so much later. If women aren't getting married until they are 30-ish, they need to support themselves until that point. Of course the cause of women waiting to marry is that they know they can support themselves. Marriage is a matter of choice, where men have little leverage. Women can fuck around with as many bad guys and assholes as they want until they're 30 or so, then they expect to find the nice guy they've been shunning their whole lives to just marry her and be subserviant almost. The nice guy accepts because he's getting older too. He eventually sees the situation for what it is. He is still basically useless. Not much has changed for him since college.
MasterOLightning said:
Very true for American society. It brings a tear to my eye.
I'm 27, and many of my friends, and well, with my own experiences, I can vouch for everything you've stated. I know a few nice but men that traded up if you will for attractive wives with good jobs, who now run their lives. Its very very sad and emasculating for the man. And then their controlling wives start complaining about their spouses ball-lessness; yet while they complain over dinner, they tell them what to do, or ask them why they wore that shirt, instead of the one they suggested. Its terrible really.
And what I find strangest, is how materialistic and vain these successful women are. I dont know of one professional woman who has married someone occupationally beneath them--lawyers marry lawyers, doctors, doctors. Its quite akin to the old trend of lower class people, finding suitable higher class people to marry to bolster and improve their status. Women, now open to positions of power and wealth, are only marrying to increase this power and wealth.
