Masculinity

judas69 said:
If the majority of our species were homosexual, you would have instead defined heterosexuality as a deviance from homosexuality and so, your definition appears entirely grounded on what happens to be the sexual norm for our species. Granted, they both involve a sexual disposition, but that's not to say one specific tendency (hetero / homo sexuality) is a necessary offshoot of the norm of the other.

There is no point in endless speculation of counter-factuals (epsecially backtracking ones, such as the human species being homosexual or having arachnid bodies, etc.)

Yes, our departure point and ground is what is the case. Honest thinkers are, after all, concerned with our actual situation, not dicking around with fantasy systems to justify our every whim.

judas69 said:
In my eyes it's black and white, there's no gray area with respect to homosexuality and heterosexuality ..it's like being at a traffic stop, you either go right, or you go left.

You wont find support for that reductionist notion in any critical literature, even those presuming "homosexuality" as something real and acceptable/justifiable.
 
My Man Mahmoud said:
Not to circumvent three pages of discussion, but here's my take on the original question:

'Masculinity' and 'feminity' are in a sense cultural constructions (albeit constructed in part from biological norms). They are not wholly arbitrary, though they are exaggerated and artificial. They serve an important biocultural function - to ritualize socially and individually beneficial behavior patterns.

The obvious corollary to this is that the relative value of 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviors fluctuates according to the organization of a given society and the particular challenges it faces. The nature of our current society places a premium on relational skills and being able to navigate life with a minimum of conflict - so it should come as no surprise that 'feminine' values are currently in ascendence.

A good post, although I am reticent about the last line. I dont think that aspect of our society is gender-motivated necessarily, but economically so (true conflict [non marketable or industrial] is not good for the global capitalist [market] paradigm).
 
Justin S. said:
A good post, although I am reticent about the last line. I dont think that aspect of our society is gender-motivated necessarily, but economically so (true conflict [non marketable or industrial] is not good for the global capitalist [market] paradigm).

We're talking about collections of ideals - not of gender or biological sex in the absolute. Our society is increasingly "feminized" - not because women are in ascendency, but because traditionally feminine values are more useful in the current social environment. Look who gets ahead - women and men who have mastered the 'feminine' virtues (compromise, communication, empathy etc.).
 
I simply dont see how those virtues are predominately "feminine" either intrinsically or by cultural ideals (they are present in all political, social, and religious systems). Certainly, their heavy emphasis, and to such a extreme degree, currently has more to do with power and economy. I can think of just as many feminine virtues (again, both accounts) that have been sacrificed to these ends as well. Any gender is a problem to such a system (which also sheds light on the trendiness of gender/sexual ambiguity).

What society has become is frivolous and impotent- a darkening of spirit- that is no more feminine than masculine (but is more associated with the former due to women being degraded more overtly and effectively historically and thus exhibiting these traits stereotypically, which is an important aspect of what you were saying).
 
Norsemaiden said:
I wouldn't necessarily say homosexuals are more creative. Certainly there are some extremely heterosexual men who are painters, poets, authors, etc. (But I know that only proves that not all artists are homo). Homosexuals may gravitate toward expressing themselves artistically for the reasons Judas says - because of their alienation. Perhaps because they don't want to do manly things - they end up having to prove themselves special in other ways. Also there is a prima donna tendency in their personalities that makes them want to do showy things to impress people or make them look. That doesn't equate with talent as such, but does make them more determined to take up such forms of expression. Actors seem to be more prone to be homosesxal than other kinds of artists. (Except dancers of course!).

There is a lot more to people's distaste at homosexuality than the idea of the contact of genitals. There is real fear of pederasty and also of male rape. Perhaps these fears are largely unfounded - but they are somewhat different from a mere prudishness.

The above fears are mainly caused by: stories of male rape in prisons and because men rather than women perpetrate rape, and if they don't want to do it to a woman - then they probably want to do it to a man or boy. So there is less dislike/fear of lesbians than of male homosexuals consequently.
Also the behaviour of priests has reinforced negative feelings towards homosexuals.

If the above is inaccurate - please explain why.

Male sexuality generally can be frightening. The reason heterosexual men are not normally a threat to the women they lust after is that they want to build a long-term relationship and rear children. When these two motives are not relevant - ie in most homosexual urges then there is more potential for nastiness.
That seems logical. It only wouldn't be true if a homosexual man really wanted a long term partner to care for, protect and love. But that is rare, isn't it?


Norsemaiden,

I think you did well in summarizing and complexifing the general population's negative response to homosexuality (as well as an introduction on the flamboyant and escapist nature of many "arts"). I overlooked this when I said I disagreed with what people had posted thus far.
 
Great that we are in agreement about that JustinS:)

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that there is a potential for young men/boys who are naturally quite shy, gentle, sensitive souls (my own brother is of this type) to be easily confused about their sexuality. They may be pushed around by more aggressive boys and taunted as being "gay" by their peers at school. They may also find that another such sensitive boy becomes their best friend and they share a lot of interests. Plus they may be disgusted by the behaviour of a lot of females, finding their conversations limited and that these women are obsessed with shallow materialism. Even their fat out of condition bodies may put the chap off - but then again men are not any fitter generally either on average.

Any such fellow, especially if his interests are more to do with art than with such things as mechanics, is in great danger of being led into thinking he is gay. Predatory homosexuals may groom him and take advantage of his naivity. And the way modern society in many ways is encouraging and celebrating homosexuality - as if it were an interesting and sophisticated trait - is nothing short of mind pollution. If I elaborated on this then this post would be more suited to the conspiracy thread....

Really someone isn't properly homosexual unless they are very strongly drawn in a sexual, rather than aesthetic, way towards the male physique (in a far stronger way than they are sexually drawn to a woman). Unless there is undeniable arousal from the idea of sex with the same gender then it doesn't really qualify as homosexual. Loving and feeling a close bond with the same sex isn't homosexual either (it is more brotherly/sisterly) - even if there are feelings of jealousy when the other person finds a partner.

JustinS - could one say that if someone has an inability to be aroused by anything other than a manequin and that is what they have as their partner, (as some men actually do - I read an article about that) then they should maybe be said to belong in a category all of their own: manequinsexual for eg?! It does follow logically.
 
It is interesting to me that historically speaking males often carried on far more meaningful relationships, even casually speaking, between one another without risking ostracism as a Fop, Sodomite, etc. One of the best areas to view what we might call "male-bonding" of a purely non-sexual nature today, was often seen during war. A wealth of written wartime correspondence and memoirs illustrate this point in a way many today would find surprising. No doubt the terrifying and traumatic nature of warfare itself had a lot to with it, but these relations were often cultivated before a young man set foot upon the field of battle. You occasionally hear terms of phrases like "We Band of Brothers" or German "Kommeradschaft" to the day.
Simply put, males were able to be affectionate toward or show great respect or admiration for other males without being suspected of ulterior, homosexual motives. This decidedly healthy attitude extended to brothers and familiy members as well. While predictably, some insist there is hidden or latent homo-eroticism in it, I do not see it that way. I used to be very active in historical reenacting and so-called Living History events and was a voracious reader of first hand historical documents from the America Civil War through the Second World War. This purely platonic male-bonding runs throughout these written accounts and as original-source material betrays none of the homosexuality some may wish to read thereinto.(now, about that conspiracy link Norsemaiden spoke of...:) )
Somehow, in the post counter-culture decades we have grown increasingly "homophobic" to borrow the term, but not in an anti-gay manner so much as an unfortunate eroticising of virtually all closer male interaction and relationships beyond perhaps, team-sports. Males rarely have close friends as they once commonly did. I know this is the case with nearly all males I know personally. Sad really...
Don't know if there was an overriding point here...just a topical observation.
 
OldScratch said:
It is interesting to me that historically speaking males often carried on far more meaningful relationships, even casually speaking, between one another without risking ostracism as a Fop, Sodomite, etc. One of the best areas to view what we might call "male-bonding" of a purely non-sexual nature today, was often seen during war. A wealth of written wartime correspondence and memoirs illustrate this point in a way many today would find surprising. No doubt the terrifying and traumatic nature of warfare itself had a lot to with it, but these relations were often cultivated before a young man set foot upon the field of battle. You occasionally hear terms of phrases like "We Band of Brothers" or German "Kommeradschaft" to the day.
Simply put, males were able to be affectionate toward or show great respect or admiration for other males without being suspected of ulterior, homosexual motives. This decidedly healthy attitude extended to brothers and familiy members as well. While predictably, some insist there is hidden or latent homo-eroticism in it, I do not see it that way. I used to be very active in historical reenacting and so-called Living History events and was a voracious reader of first hand historical documents from the America Civil War through the Second World War. This purely platonic male-bonding runs throughout these written accounts and as original-source material betrays none of the homosexuality some may wish to read thereinto.(now, about that conspiracy link Norsemaiden spoke of...:) )
Somehow, in the post counter-culture decades we have grown increasingly "homophobic" to borrow the term, but not in an anti-gay manner so much as an unfortunate eroticising of virtually all closer male interaction and relationships beyond perhaps, team-sports. Males rarely have close friends as they once commonly did. I know this is the case with nearly all males I know personally. Sad really...
Don't know if there was an overriding point here...just a topical observation.

Well, this forum sort of is a safe haven for non-sexual male bonding. Besides Norsemaiden, and the occasional other female post, we're all males here.

I genuinely enjoy the company of women however. I encourage you to find yourself some intelligent female friends; they're hard to find, hehe, but great friends.
 
OldScratch said:
It is interesting to me that historically speaking males often carried on far more meaningful relationships, even casually speaking, between one another without risking ostracism as a Fop, Sodomite, etc. One of the best areas to view what we might call "male-bonding" of a purely non-sexual nature today, was often seen during war. A wealth of written wartime correspondence and memoirs illustrate this point in a way many today would find surprising. No doubt the terrifying and traumatic nature of warfare itself had a lot to with it, but these relations were often cultivated before a young man set foot upon the field of battle. You occasionally hear terms of phrases like "We Band of Brothers" or German "Kommeradschaft" to the day.
Simply put, males were able to be affectionate toward or show great respect or admiration for other males without being suspected of ulterior, homosexual motives. This decidedly healthy attitude extended to brothers and familiy members as well. While predictably, some insist there is hidden or latent homo-eroticism in it, I do not see it that way. I used to be very active in historical reenacting and so-called Living History events and was a voracious reader of first hand historical documents from the America Civil War through the Second World War. This purely platonic male-bonding runs throughout these written accounts and as original-source material betrays none of the homosexuality some may wish to read thereinto.(now, about that conspiracy link Norsemaiden spoke of...:) )
Somehow, in the post counter-culture decades we have grown increasingly "homophobic" to borrow the term, but not in an anti-gay manner so much as an unfortunate eroticising of virtually all closer male interaction and relationships beyond perhaps, team-sports. Males rarely have close friends as they once commonly did. I know this is the case with nearly all males I know personally. Sad really...
Don't know if there was an overriding point here...just a topical observation.

I enjoy very close relationships with both men and women, but I think you are on to something.

I must agree with Speed and say the company of women is awesome.
 
Norsemaiden said:
JustinS - could one say that if someone has an inability to be aroused by anything other than a manequin and that is what they have as their partner, (as some men actually do - I read an article about that) then they should maybe be said to belong in a category all of their own: manequinsexual for eg?! It does follow logically.

As I said previously, a robust account of sexuality will not be limited to privileging a single, or even a few, aspects of ones existence - in the case above, arousal. Nor would preference, activity, even neurology be adequate criterion when severed from the integrated being.

Sexuality must be approached holistically. In this sense, as my man Mahmoud said :)lol:), heterosexuality is the only holistic sexuality (with other practices deriving from this). Proponents of other phenomena seek legitimacy through their own categorical name, even if they cannot lay claim to the essence of one.

A few side notes: I find it very revealing that many "homosexual" persons will adopt mainstream gender roles in their relationships. In a sense, they are not truly "homo" at all, but seek difference and dimorphism as well.

Ive always thought strict homo-arousal was quite bizarre, seeing as it would be arousal by one's self (an erection from seeing an erection, or vaginal wetness from seeing another vagina, which would be totally familiar in both cases???), or at the least very similar aspects and relationality of ones own existence... Im not convinced this is an actual occurrence either.

The sociological damage caused by homosexual practice has also been ignored in this thread (the lack of a realm of non-sexual interaction [inner-gender relations now sexually charged, with all the violence and confusion that comes with it], ad infinitum.

To sum, I can't believe the shoddy and dishonest positions I see otherwise intelligent people defending when "homosexuality", or sexual issues in general, get brought up. This displays the irony of the no-sexual-taboos age's plethora of sexual taboos (you may criticize one's country, lifestyle, even god- but dont you dare cast a critical eye on how, why, or what one fucks!)
 
speed said:
Well, this forum sort of is a safe haven for non-sexual male bonding. Besides Norsemaiden, and the occasional other female post, we're all males here.

I genuinely enjoy the company of women however. I encourage you to find yourself some intelligent female friends; they're hard to find, hehe, but great friends.

Good point - though it is a decidedly anonymous form of 'bonding' one might say.
Actually, I have several female friends and I fully agree their company is enjoyable on every level. This is very rare, however, as you noted.
 
There are many who say that it is impossible for men and women to be purely platonic friends with eachother - and that sexual attraction must be there somewhere. I don't know.

I just deleted a paragraph of thoughts on this, because it is an awkward subject! But what do you all think - in your own experience.

This should perhaps be a thread starter, if a moderator wants to move it.
 
Indeed, a friendship thread would be lovely. Especially as it perfectly coincides with this thread and the Symposium.
 
A friendship thread? lawl.

An Emotions, luck, monkey, troll up the board thread--yeah! Whats on your mind today judas? I am just dying to see what you post.

Notice said thread was not created, and intention for said thread was to link up with Plato's Symposium.
 
There are many who say that it is impossible for men and women to be purely platonic friends with eachother - and that sexual attraction must be there somewhere. I don't know.

If it is possible, it's always in the back of their minds, assuming the two involved are at least somewhat attractive. It's easy to be just friends with someone less attractive, regardless, these thoughts I believe will creep up from time to time.

I just deleted a paragraph of thoughts on this, because it is an awkward subject! But what do you all think - in your own experience.

Post it.
 
I'm not sure how I missed this thread, but it is very interesting so far. I will not post a full response yet. It seems that would be something of a huge undertaking. I don't even know where to begin here.