Mastering of ND albums

[Warbitrary]

I've bought The Novella Reservoir, and I think it's great. However, it seems to be a victim of the loudness war.

In case you're not familiar with the loudness war, it's a music industry trend which started as a pissing contest between records executives about who would release the loudest album. However, many small producers/mastering engineers today are producing albums with little dynamic range, seemingly oblivious to the fact that this permanently degrades the sound quality.

Recommended reading: http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm

Watch these two short informative videos:
Loudness war explanation: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&fmt=18
Metallica comparison: www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&fmt=18

Examples of metal songs with good dynamic range:
Annihilator - King Of The Kill (listen: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXtRBVJkukY&fmt=18 )
Stormlord - Dance Of Hecate (listen: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysvzUk-AcY&fmt=18 )
Death - Individual Thought Patterns (listen: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSjntSpxT8&fmt=18 )

I think it's a shame that recent ND records are crippled by excessive loudness. I hope you can consider leaving more dynamic range on future releases.

About Into Night's Requiem Infernal:
I listened to Empathy's Greed, and it's really a great track, except the mastering is quite bad (even worst than The Novella Reservoir). I'm afraid the whole album will be like that.

Also, I read here that Paul hates the sound of MP3s, which is a minor issue compared to impact of bad mastering. If the mastering sucks, encoding an MP3 at 128 or 320kbps won't make much difference. And as a listener, I have control over which format I use. But I don't have a choice about the mastering. Once the sound is damaged, there nothing I can do except hope for a remastering, which almost never happens.

Thoughts?

 

[Novembers Paul]

It's all personal taste. I think 90% of the listeners are NOT audiophiles, and you are the very first person I have EVER come in contact with who have complained about our mastering. I feel James Murphy did a great job on The Novella Reservoir, as well as The Pale Haunt Departure, and for Into Night's Requiem Infernal, Dan Swano handled the mastering as well, and once again, we're quite happy with the results. We can't please everyone, nor do we attempt to. Our number one concern, is that the 5 members of Novembers Doom like the final output, and we do.

It doesn't clip, and doesn't distort. It is loud, but we like the extra punch on the music.

Perhaps you should go post on both James Murphy's and Dan Swano's forums here at UM, as they both have them, and tell them they suck? We however disagree whole heartedly.

 

[Srontgorrth]

I honestly don't see what is bad at all about the mastering of TNR or Empathy's Greed, they both sound fantastic to my ears.

 

[Warbitrary]

It's all personal taste. I think 90% of the listeners are NOT audiophiles, and you are the very first person I have EVER come in contact with who have complained about our mastering. I feel James Murphy did a great job on The Novella Reservoir, as well as The Pale Haunt Departure, and for Into Night's Requiem Infernal, Dan Swano handled the mastering as well, and once again, we're quite happy with the results. We can't please everyone, nor do we attempt to. Our number one concern, is that the 5 members of Novembers Doom like the final output, and we do.

It doesn't clip, and doesn't distort. It is loud, but we like the extra punch on the music.

Perhaps you should go post on both James Murphy's and Dan Swano's forums here at UM, as they both have them, and tell them they suck? We however disagree whole heartedly.

Thanks for the reply. As I understand in your post, this is a conscious decision by the band, so I don't think I can change your mind on the subject.

Why I complain: I think that lots of dynamics is a win for both audiophiles and ordinary listeners, precisely for the reason that ordinary listeners are not audiophiles: they won't notice if it sounds a little better or a little worst. With less dynamics, audiophiles notice, but ordinary listeners don't.

When I say "bad mastering" it's of course from a personal point of view. I'm not saying either Dan or James are incompetent, I just disagree with the philosophical/artistic decision that "less dynamics is better". As you said, it doesn't clip, and all the instruments are well mixed.

I honestly don't see what is bad at all about the mastering of TNR or Empathy's Greed, they both sound fantastic to my ears.

Yes I'm not saying they sound bad, only that they could be better. If you've always listened to music with compressed dynamic range, it's hard to judge because you don't have anything to compare.

When audio is compressed, the peaks are cut off, which create horrible distortion called clipping, which is the easily recognizable sign that sound has been compressed. All over-compressed albums today are digitally processed to remove these clips, or else they would be unlistenable (exaggerated example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQEJh3kqZN0&fmt=18). When the clipping is removed, you can only feel the difference, not really "hear" it.

The instrument where I notice the most degradation is the drums. With lots of dynamics, I find drums hits have more depth (they punch out of the mix). With little dynamics, the drums hits seem to "run out of breath". As you can see I really don't know how to explain it in words. For best comparison, you need two album with different dynamics. You'll need to turn up the volume when playing the tracks with more dynamics, because its average volume is lower by design.

Possible comparisons:
Thrash: Metallica's Death Magnetic vs. Ride The Lightning
Doom: Inborn Suffering's Wordless Hope vs. Candlemass' Ancient Dreams
Death: Death's The Sound Of Perseverance vs. Individual Thought Patterns
Melodic Black: Graveworm's Collateral Damage vs. Stormlord's The Gorgon Cult

Finally, a little audio production humor to lighten things up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPu0DKyGgZI&fmt=18

edit:

Perhaps you should go post on both James Murphy's and Dan Swano's forums here at UM, as they both have them, and tell them they suck?

I've PMed them both and gave a link to this thread.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Comparing Death Magnetic and Ride the Lightning is silly. About 20 years apart, and when Ride the Lightning was recorded, Mastering wasn't what is it is today.

I understand your complaints, but we don't share your view, and as I said, we feel both James and Dan are fantastic at what they do. James hears things in music most people would never hear. His mastering IS top notch.

It's all a matter of opinion, and we'll continue using the talents of people like James and Dan in the future, 100%, because we're completely satisfied with the outcome. Sorry you hear it differently, but honestly we can't please everyone. You're the first to complain of this in our music. If this were the feeling of the majority of our fans, it might be cause for concern. All the links in the world of computer audio comparisons won't change the fact we LIKE the outcome.

 

[Hawk]

Comparing Death Magnetic and Ride the Lightning is silly. About 20 years apart, and when Ride the Lightning was recorded, Mastering wasn't what is it is today.

.

That's exactly his point. You don't seem to understand what he is saying.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I know or care nothing of any possible loudness war, all I know is when we get the roughs back from whomever is mixing & mastering our cds, I listen to it and say "that sounds good to my ears and preference" or it doesn't. If our album is louder than most, or totally not, I honestly don't know. It sounds good to me, sorry if it doesn't to other people. *shrug*

 

[AnTz0r]

thanks for that youtube video though, haven't laughed so hard in a long time, especially when i saw the "loud" and "really loud" album cover, hehe.

 

[Novembers Paul]

That's exactly his point. You don't seem to understand what he is saying.

No, I absolutely get the point, and I still think it's silly to compare something that virtually unmastered to modern mastering. I'm eagerly waiting for albums like Ride the Lightning to be mastered with modern technology. When I play the original CD to something new, the sound on the original is dull in comparison.

It's like comparing a Model A Ford to a Ferrari. Both are cars, but to compare them on speed would be silly. And again, it's personal taste. Some people like the old classics, some like it modern, but who would I be to tell the other side they are wrong?

All the digital graphs, videos, and statistics in the world doesn't change the fact it comes down to taste.

 

[Jasonic]

I think it would have been nice for this guy to have at least introduced himself to the board / band before shitstorming the mastering of their albums, but hey, that's just me.

 

[Jasonic]

Finally, a little audio production humor to lighten things up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPu0DKyGgZI&fmt=18

Someone fill me in, since I apparently missed the memo.
Where is the proof in direct correlation of "Loudness" and "Album Sales"?

 

[affinityband]

well i would imagine theres some truth in it seeing as bands pay a huge amount of money to get an album mastered. isnt mastering in laymans terms just raising the volume of levels?

 

[AnTz0r]

no. it's not just volume. it's a matter of dynamic range and overall EQ as well.

 

[Novembers Paul]

well i would imagine theres some truth in it seeing as bands pay a huge amount of money to get an album mastered. isnt mastering in laymans terms just raising the volume of levels?

There's EQing and a lot more involved, to retain the musics integrity while raising the volume to it's peak levels.

 

[Jasonic]

Yeah, though still, what is all this mumbo jumbo about "loudness wars" and how this ultimately equtes to more album sales?

 

[Novembers Paul]

Yeah, though still, what is all this mumbo jumbo about "loudness wars" and how this ultimately equtes to more album sales?

 

[AnTz0r]

well albums are getting louder, some too loud (ie. RHCP - californication). clipping etc. is audible on those records. can't say i've read any solid arguments on how it relates to album sales, but you can say that a loud album will sound better through crappy ipod earplugs or car radios

 

[FearSore]

Alright, something is very wrong with this, at least on a fundamental level. When fans actually complain about mastering??? COME ON...
We all bought oldschool albums, some (on reflection) have the sound quality of ASS or very near it - yet we still love them (someone give me some comparisons - I be's at work). So what's the deal??? You get a band like ND who cares enough to seek out the industries top ears to tweak material's recording to high quality audio and you cant find anything to bitch about as far as the music goes so you attack the mastering?? I understand everything said comes from an opinion, but an opinion that comes down to lack of understanding that the band likes how the stuff comes out. Sorry, guys - that post was just inflammatory and I found it quite obnoxious......

 

[Rycher]

Kari Byron is hot.

 

[OPETH_DT]

I refuse to buy the first 3 Metallica cds until they are properly remastered. They were the best, and represented what it was all about back then. Until then, I still have my cassettes.