Media Bullshit and stuff...

Originally posted by Lina
oh jesus, luke, a whopping total of FOURTEEN afghani civillians have been killed. they obviously aren't the target, and of course a few innocent people will be killed if they're living right next door to a military camp. not quite enough to make me write to my congressman.
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The Unites States have killed 8 000 000 (that's eight million) people during the last fifty years, the vast majority of them innocent. Should I be crying for the couple of thousand dead in that insignificant accident a month or so ago?

-Villain
 
Originally posted by Villain
The Unites States have killed 8 000 000 (that's eight million) people during the last fifty years, the vast majority of them innocent. Should I be crying for the couple of thousand dead in that insignificant accident a month or so ago?
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no, and i wasn't either. if you recall, i was disgusted at the behavior of all the americans on this board. their mourning followed by a call for retaliation sickened me. however, i'm happy to report (and shocked beyond belief) that Bush hasn't listened to the on-average-stupid american public and is instead pursuing this in a rather thoughtful manner.

i guess i look at this from a somewhat cold perspective, emotionally. (and i admit i knew no one that died, which enables me to do so.) it's only been in recent years that people cry about a few people dying during a war (isn't that what a war ENTAILS by definition???)

are you crying over the vikings' mistreatment of the world? (i'm sure you're not crying for the supposed 8 million people the U.S. has killed in the last 50 years, either. after all, what would you bitch about?) throughout history and into the future, there is always going to be a powerful country/force/group/nation that displays its dominance. right now it's the U.S. in the past it's been the vikings, the mongols, the huns, the spaniards, the romans -- just about everybody has had a turn.

my question to you is, to what end are you keeping such a precise checklist of all the agressor's actions? you've said before that you're just sick of ignorant americans blaring their unenlightened views, and i guess you haven't been paying attention, but i always agreed with you. but do you really think, judging from history and human nature, that if the U.S. wasn't dominant that no one else would be and we'd all live in peace? no, of course not. someone else would fill that spot.

so just be happy that you chose to be born in finland, and therefore don't have to take responsibility for the U.S.' actions. it's fun to throw insults from your comfy (but chilly) corner of the globe, isn't it? the truth is, there are plenty of people in this country who are just as aware of the injustices in the world as you are, but who realize (as a result of being on the agressor's side and yet having no influence over the agressor's actions) that the global game of S&M will continue to go on as long as this planet survives, with the power changing hands many times.
 
To Lina:

Yes, I agree with most of your points and I do remember your mature attitude in the previous discussions. However, I wanted to show you that it is not the NUMBER of innocent dead people that matters; fourteen innocent afghan civilians are fourteen too much- just like 6000 innocent dead Americans are 6000 too much. We should not let our views be blinded by the vast amounts of blood, but we should take every injustice and note it in itself.

Another point: Yes, it is damn easy to shout pacifistic words from here, the farside of everything. But what else can I do? Believe me, had I the power to end this madness, I would have done it long ago. But I believe that with words one can change the attitudes, remove the prejudices and indeed make the world a better place. Granted, I myself often loose my temper and thus spawn more hatred with my hateful words - but I have yet time to learn.

And lastly, I must agree that I also expected/feared a lot worse reaction by W in this matter. Still, however, the cynic in me says he's now only a bit smarter in this game of facades and he plays along the moderate line in public to gather more support, while his advisors plan new ways to wage wars around the world.

-Villain
 
Oh man, I'm beginning to think this thread was a bad idea. How the fuck does every thread that has to do with something that USA did turns into "I hate America" thread? Is that really necessary?
Demonic Figure, what do you know about muslims and their beliefs? I've lived with them my whole life, and I paid attention. They are just about as peace loving as my people are. So spare me the lecturing. Of course not all of them are like this, but 99% is kind of stretching it. I mean 99% of Americans are not peace loving, and America is a civilized nation.
Back to the war issue. I've heard this war being compared to the war of drugs several times, and I think that is a very good comparison. So, in order to come anywhere close to winning US and the rest of the world will have to become pretty fucking ruthless. And I believe that they will, but we won't hear about it on the evening news. We will hear about it 20 years after it has happened. Which in my opinion is very stupid, but I won't go into that. So by the time this war is in it's late stages most people will forget what the point of it was, and all there will be left is some photo taken by some guy of some US soldier slaughtering some kid in some village somewhere in middle east. And that photo will become a representation of the entire war. So all of you patriots that are so proudly waving that flag, America does not need your support now, if you come back with the same attitude in a few years you just might save her.
 
Hmm...I really shouldn't reply to this thread, because of where it's heading, but no one is perfect. :heh:

Originally posted by Oyo
And Mikaelisgod, try using commas or periods, you don't need to use "....." every other sentence
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I really didn't mean for it to turn into a bash Mikael is God thread...

Originally posted by Demonic_Figure
Doesn't anyone pay attention to the news? We are not at war with Afghanistan. We are at war with terrorism. Afghanistan just happens to be the place where the war started. We are not at war with Afghans, we are at war with bin Laden and the Taliban regime. Remember, bin Laden is Saudi Arabian, and we're not bombing them, are we? Bin Laden's right hand man is Egyptian: are we bombing Cairo? Nationality has nothing to do with it. The theory behind dropping food and bombing at the same time is sound because we are bombing Taliban MILITARY targets, and dropping food in areas that have been in drought for the past 3 years and the people have nothing to eat.

I'm not even Muslim, and I took offense to the "go meet Allah" and "Fuck Mohammed" lines. You guys are idiots. 99% of Muslims don't agree with terroristic doctrines. The terrorists are nut jobs who have a twisted interpretation of the Koran, and who believe that they are on a crusade to rid the world of "dirty Infidels"(ie. anyone who is not Muslim). Let us not forget the Christian Crusades of the middle ages. The Christians were the terrorists in those days, razing cities, raping women, killing children, because they had a twisted view of their religion. The Knights Templar were no different than the terrorists who strap bombs to themselves and blow up sidewalk cafes. They both killed innocent people in the name of their respective Gods. What I'm getting at is that there are 2 sides to every story, and those who form opinions having heard only 1 of those sides are fools.
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Well I don't know about the whole "not being at war with Afganistan thing". The whole scenario has a strong aura of the U.S. looking for a reason to take out the Taliban. While I have no problem with it from a moral standpoint, there are a number of political problems with doing that. But, basically, since the Taliban have been so irresponsible in the treatment of their country, they are being ousted by the self-appointed world police. (Like Lina said, someone is always the biggest and strongest, and if it's not the U.S. it would be some other nation.) In any modern war, and many of the olden wars, the enemy in that war is the government and military of a said enemy, the women and children, (civilians), aren't the ones doing the fighting, and only the most reproachable enemies, even in the days of Rome or Mongolia, were the ones who raped and ravaged the townspeople. When the people in this thread talked about taking out the Afgans, I assume they meant the Afgan government, (except in the case of the person who desired to wipe them all out. We can safely say that he is misguided).

About the news...since when do we trust the media? I don't mean to sound like a paranoid, but it's widely known that the American media isn't perfect. There are a number of things that should be taken with a grain of salt, and a number of things that should be further explored, because they are being given with a grain of salt.

Lastly, when you call everyone you disagree with "fools" and "idiots", you lose the favor of the crowd and prove to us all that you are talking irrationally.

Originally posted by luke
Just yesterday they happened to show footage of Afghani children that were all bandaged up after being severly wounded during the attacks.
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You talk as if the Afgan civilians were the ones being targetted. I'd say that's a huge improvement over the nuclear bombs used on Japan. But it's war; people will die. This world is not an ideal world, so nothing done in it can have the exact effects intended. You should know that.

Originally posted by Villain
The Unites States have killed 8 000 000 (that's eight million) people during the last fifty years, the vast majority of them innocent. Should I be crying for the couple of thousand dead in that insignificant accident a month or so ago?
Click to expand...

It's amazing how much cynicism can be found on this board, I don't claim to be any better, but it's saddening at times. Looking at it with your perspective, the entire entity of life and existance begins to feel worthless: a rather dangerous thought for anyone who wishes to achieve happiness. My point: just because one person in a hospital may have a stab wound to the chest, and another has a broken finger, it doesn't mean they send away the one with the broken finger.

Originally posted by Villain
Yes, I agree with most of your points and I do remember your mature attitude in the previous discussions. However, I wanted to show you that it is not the NUMBER of innocent dead people that matters; fourteen innocent afghan civilians are fourteen too much- just like 6000 innocent dead Americans are 6000 too much. We should not let our views be blinded by the vast amounts of blood, but we should take every injustice and note it in itself.
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That's a better perspective, but it rather contradicts your previous statement.

Originally posted by Despot
Oh man, I'm beginning to think this thread was a bad idea. How the fuck does every thread that has to do with something that USA did turns into "I hate America" thread? Is that really necessary?
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It's actually not too bad right now. If you don't think America has had her share of mistakes then you are closing your eyes a bit. I haven't seen any real "I hate America" posts yet. I'm sure even you, yourself, though, will admit that over 90% of the people you know (mostly Americans, since you are from America), are very ignorant of things in general.

Originally posted by Despot
We will hear about it 20 years after it has happened. Which in my opinion is very stupid, but I won't go into that. So by the time this war is in it's late stages most people will forget what the point of it was, and all there will be left is some photo taken by some guy of some US soldier slaughtering some kid in some village somewhere in middle east. And that photo will become a representation of the entire war. So all of you patriots that are so proudly waving that flag, America does not need your support now, if you come back with the same attitude in a few years you just might save her.
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Interesting perspective...just may come to pass. Rumors a dangerous thing.

I wouldl ike to say more on the whole thing, but i gotta jet.
 
Villain,

ok, first, thanks for the calm debate...i was fearing a shouting match. ;)

here's something this conversation has made me realize, and this is what i was getting at in my previous post. while, in some ways, i admire "pacifists," i also feel it's a rather fruitless endeavor. just think of all the millions and millions of deaths you've never heard about, extending back into history. death (and, yes, cruel/unjust death) is a part of human nature and is even necessary, i think. obviously i don't want to die and i don't want my loved ones to die, but in the entire, whole big picture, the deaths of the afghanis AND the deaths of the americans are so insignificant.

be happy at the sensitivity and thoughtfulness that politicians are at least forced into feigning these days, if they don't actually feel it. there's a set of rules now for "civilized war," which strikes me as odd. people being prosecuted for "war crimes" and so on -- as if there's a polite way to kill someone.

war is ugly. by definition. war involves death. i suppose you would like to see a world with no wars. i guess we all would. but do you actually think that's feasible, that that's even a possibility? is that the end result you're hoping for?

i think there will ALWAYS be wars, and therefore, death. so that's why i just don't get very worked up about protesting war and crying over every unjust death in the world. i sit back and observe this new war, interested by the new tactics and enemy. but i view it as inevitable and therefore see crying over who's killed whom as inconsequential.

i'm very curious to hear what you think.
 
I just wanted to mention something that made me chuckle the other night. I was watching PBS and a woman was interviewing a few college professors and she was asking questions about the "Afghanistan situation." I am always amused by wartime euphemisms.
 
Originally posted by Despot
Demonic Figure, what do you know about muslims and their beliefs? I've lived with them my whole life, and I paid attention. They are just about as peace loving as my people are. So spare me the lecturing. Of course not all of them are like this, but 99% is kind of stretching it. I mean 99% of Americans are not peace loving, and America is a civilized nation.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure about the 99% thing. I don't expect 99% of Americans to be peace loving, because obviously America is made up of all kinds of different people. I daresay that 99% of Christians are peace loving, are they not? I'm also pretty sure that 99% of Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and just about every other major religion are peace-loving. Unfortunately, not everyone practices one of these religions and therefore lacks the base of morals that a religious person would have. You're comparing apples and oranges (a religion vs. a sovereign state). BTW, the last sentence in your quote there does a good job of implying that Muslims are are somehow uncivilized, as if you were saying, "Gee, if America is so civilized, and we have all these problems, how do those Muslims do it?"
That's what I got out of it, anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.

originally posted by TyrantOfFlames
Lastly, when you call everyone you disagree with "fools" and "idiots", you lose the favor of the crowd and prove to us all that you are talking irrationally.
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Uh, I'm not trying to win the crowd over, because no one is going to change their opinion based on the arguments presented here. It just won't happen, I know this as should everyone else. You are absolutely right. Calling my "opponents" idiots would not help me in any way; in fact it would just show weakness, having to resort to name-calling. But this is an opinion board, isn't it? Aren't people allowed and even encouraged to state their opinions on the subjects discussed here? That's all I was doing. I apologize to anyone who was insulted, angered or otherwise hurt by my opinion. (Bad Opinion! Bad! Next time I'll wring your scrawny neck...!)

It's funny the way we pick apart each other's posts and try to make each other look stupid. As if it's important. It's a good way to pass the time I guess. It's also funny how we all get off the main subject so easily. Hey, that reminds me, who's planning to go see the Lord of the Rings movie? (let's see if anyone takes the bait, heh heh heh...)

Ok, now I'm just wasting space, not to mention everyone's time. Sorry.
 
Originally posted by Lina
i'm very curious to hear what you think.
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Hmmm, okay. I am kind of exhausted right now (both physically and emotionally), but I'll try to express my personal viewpoints towards this.

First of all, I do find "a world without wars" an unreachable(sp?) utopia and thus I often tend to agree with your more pragmatic view. However, I also find "equal world" and "world without famine/drugs/whatever bad" unreachable. Yet, I do not turn my back to inequality, but try to fight against it anywhere the best that I can. So, why shouldn't I fight against wars? If it is just waste of time and even if I NEVER reach any goals, I can say that at least I have tried.

Of this "world without fear of terrorism" that some people claim the goal of this war to be, I must say I find it just as unreachable. For hatred will always breed more hatred and violence will always spawn more violence.

I'll take the jews for an example. There's no denying that jews are the people who have been the victim of an unfair hatred for the longest time. And how do they act themselves by now? They kill hundreds of people each year in a futile attempt to WIN peace for them. Whereas they could drop down their guns and try to achieve peace by co-operation. Does someone really think the jews have learned anything from the past injustices laid upon them? Some of them surely have, but how about that loud mass that spreads more hatred even in here? Can't they see that by warring they only make sure there will be new wars for their children to fear?

But back to my point. I find it shocking that some mature and intelligent people can somehow promote this "war against terrorism". For this war will SURELY just breed more terrorism. That is why I want to bring it to general discussions that this war is "the war for the oil of Afghanistan" and that it would have started even if there had never been the eleventh of September. It is also very shocking that people have declared Osama bin Laden GUILTY with very little proof presented. Just the way "metal music" is blamed by every damn fundamental christian for every attack against the church - without no proof.

I just would like to make people like Mikael is God to ask some questions, instead of blindly accepting the words his superiors tell him. For if the average German had questioned Hitler's orders loud enough, there would have never been the Holocaust. And if the average American had questioned the need for the economic terrorism now waged against Iraq, there would not be a holocaust happening there right now.

And the thing that makes me angry, is the hypocrisy around all this. The very false belief that America "helps people around the world" and that America "stands for freedom and injustice" is the reason for my anti-American attitude. Sure, the Taliban-government has to been dethroned - had the Americans done something to it three years ago, it would be far easier now. But no, America at that time had negotiations with them and almost recognized them as the rightfully ruling government there. And now that those negotiations have failed, America decides to take by force what they couldn't take with negotiations - they just needed a "reason" to do that. Whether or not the next rulers of Afghanistan torture women, does not interest the American oil-industry as long as they get their $$.

So, all in all, perhaps the utmost goal of pacifism is not to make world war-less, but to make the world a bit more peaceful, to make people open their eyes and question the needs and gains of war. I don't know if that is enough, or is it even possible. But I'm going to try...

-Villain (very tired now, sorry for possible entangled thoughts above)
 
"the god damn bombing and attacking is for a reason, if anyone can't comprehend this, then they are a fool" Mikael is God

Still running your mouth on forums hey Mikael? "Thats right the world needs a bit more bloodshed a few more innocent victims huh??? Yeah that would teach those bastards a lesson!"

Jeez dude, fucking grow up you little girl...my two year old sister could make a less inane statement than that one.

Metalbite Webzine
 
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