Metronome/ pre-production: fun times

[Nebulous]

I just got home from rehersal with the slavic folk band that I play, in which we are planning to record an album for release in the second half of this year.
We have been talking about this happening for about two years now, but last year we decided it would actually happen.
Up untill now I though we'd: demo the songs to check arrangements (done), find a nice tempo for all the tracks (done), record a backing track, have the drummer record to the backing track and click at a studio, then come back to my place for the rest of the instruments.
This was all going well, untill tonight when I took my lap top with Cubase and our demo tracks, set up a metronome and put it through the PA/ into headphones for the drummer. As tight as I thought he was, it was a big struggle!

When we recorded the demos you could really hear the timing swinging constantly, now the metronome puts him (and others) off.

I tried to explain that when I first started using a metronome it took me about 2-3 weeks to get use to it, and at the time I was just doing basic excersises to a click.
Some members left rehersal tonight frustrated and already talking about "just doing it live", and now I'm worred.
I know that the way I wanted to do the recording was the most time efficient way (everything sorted out, just go to the studio and play), but that was counting on the band being comfortable with the click.

FAIL.

Some other artists in the Balkans use drum machines/ MIDI for their albums and I think it's the cheesiest thing for the style. Also, we have abit of an old rock spin on our stuff, so the live drums are a preference for us all.

I hope this gets better.

/rant

 

[Erkan]

I have never had a problem with playing to clicks.. even when I was a beginner at drums (I ALWAYS consider myself a beginner though, no matter how good I am). I think that might have to do with the fact that when I was a little kid, I played some turkish percussion, usually involves just one drum but it's great for rhythm and such.

Anyway, I know it won't help telling you how awesome I am at playing to clicks haha, but if he wants to get better at it he needs to: STOP being frustrated. When that is done, proceed with practising, more practising and finally practising. EVERY day, 15-20 minutes non-stop, preferably twice a day. Most of the time, it's not about how long you play, it's about how often you "expose" your body/mind to it, so doing short passes but more often will result in a faster learning I think (I'm not a ph.D so I can't prove what I'm saying but it's just what I feel is right for me atleast).

Something else that I find interesting is to pick up a stop watch and start it and without looking at it, try to stop it at 10 seconds. This helps keeping a rhythm, and it's really hard because you have nothing else to listen to other than that little click you keep inside your head (Haha I hadn't done this "exercise" for months and I just picked up a stop watch now and did it again and stopped on 9.86! I still got a pretty decent 60 BPM mark in my head)

He needs to understand that learning things take time... there are no shortcuts. Just as I need to understand that learning fast double bass will take even more time... I'm struggling but atleast I don't get pissed anymore.. I think.

 

[LydonB]

I have never really had issues playing to a click, but I've played with a metronome even when I started playing the trumpet way back when. I recorded a tune with some guys at school and the drummer was really not confident playing to a click. We just had the guitarist lay down a scratch track to the click since he is pretty good with playing to a metronome. It was a guide track for the drummer, but I still sent the click to him. But I think hearing the guitar part helped him as well. So that may be an option for you to make it easier for them to play with the click when you record.

I don't think it is necessary for every group to record to a metronome, but I think it should definitely be thought about. And if the reason for them not wanting to do it is because they can't follow it, then I think there is an issue because if they can't keep a steady tempo with a metronome, I can't imagine how many tempo fluctuations there will be. It is one thing to give a recording a live feel, but you also run the risk of it being incredibly sloppy too. In the end I think if they practice to a metronome, they will see how much more cohesive it will make you sound and how much easier it may be to record.

 

[exoslime]

last weekend, i got a cd that a friend of a friend made, as gift.. after a short listen (it wasnt very listenable because the sound was really awful..) but what did anoy me most were the tempo changes within the songs that shouldnt be there...the obviously havnt recorded with a click...

I can understand that many musicans cant play to a click, or struggle with it because they are not used to.
If your band is playing very well without a click, you can try to demo-record one or two songs without a click in your rehearsal room and listen to it...if it seems to be right you can go for it,
but if you got drastic tempo changes, you have a good point for recording with a click.

i can also imagine that some tracks would work better with click, and some without click.. but the most important thing is that the musicans feel comfortable when recording it...

good luck
exoslime

 

[musickey]

Sense we are on the subject, How do you convert your tempo map in Nuendo to a midi track?

 

[ahjteam]

Are you sure it was at right playback rate (not 48k instead of 44k?)?
If yes, you know what is the best way to get used to click (and I am not kidding)?








































Guitar Hero

 

[wishtheend]

My band is prepping to record ourselves, and our drummer has only been playing with the click for a few months. At first it was really difficult for him. I think the main problem is the drummer feels like he's under a microscope - so he's thinking too much about playing TO the click, versus of playing ALONG with the click.

If the drummer is serious about getting better, he'll see how the click can help him. It's made my band's life so much easier - and even at shows that we play without the click the drummer is so much more solid and even and it just seemed to make him a much tighter player.

We still have a ways to go with it I think, but I think once your drummer can cross that first herdle he won't want to go without it.

 

[Nebulous]

last weekend, i got a cd that a friend of a friend made, as gift.. after a short listen (it wasnt very listenable because the sound was really awful..) but what did anoy me most were the tempo changes within the songs that shouldnt be there...the obviously havnt recorded with a click...

That's what I want to avoid.

The hardest part about this for me is that the drummer has been playing this style for about 10 years now (he's 30, I'm 22) and has recorded two albums with a previous band. They were done live.
I want our album to completely crap over those two (he left that band in a bitter fassion, so we'd all like to show them up).

 

[joeymusicguy]

That's what I want to avoid.

The hardest part about this for me is that the drummer has been playing this style for about 10 years now (he's 30, I'm 22) and has recorded two albums with a previous band. They were done live.
I want our album to completely crap over those two (he left that band in a bitter fassion, so we'd all like to show them up).

find albums they like that were done to a click, use it to prove "using a click" is the best method for recording

NLP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming)

you gotta find a way to break down their barriers that convince them they are right. use examples that will destroy their idea of "right" with your version of what you want.

 

[Ermz]

^ AHAHAHA. You know you're a top-flight producer when you jedi mind-fuck your clients using psychology.

My approach is different. I break the band. I don't break down any mental barriers. I just drill them to a point where they are recording a bar of music every hour and get to a point where they understand on some core level that they are wrong. Once they are broken, the reprogramming starts.

 

[ahjteam]

find albums they like that were done to a click, use it to prove "using a click" is the best method for recording

NLP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming)

you gotta find a way to break down their barriers that convince them they are right. use examples that will destroy their idea of "right" with your version of what you want.

Listen to Enter sandman against a click... Oh my god...

 

[Nebulous]

The odd thing is that the drummer and myself share our taste in metal. While he doesn't listen to it much any more, he was all for Metallica, Slayer and Machine Head back in the day, so I was even more surprised when he said he had never played to one before, and then I saw the trouble he had. I must dmit, after about two hours he was making obvious progress, but even then he was frustrated and we finished rehersal abit early.

So much easier to work on these things when you're not in the band!

 

[Ermz]

Yeah, to be honest if you can't keep time to a click you're not of much use as a musician. Because even without that reference point, you should still be able to keep a relatively consistent time. The click merely highlights just how off the playing is. You just have to keep working at it until he gets more comfortable with it.

 

[Nebulous]

Yeah. It's odd, I know that when we're performing and he is in the zone, he is quite tight, only making this discovery so much more unexpected.

Even with running the risk, I will continue bringing the lap top and having us all rehearse to the click. Hopefull he will get better and warm to it.

 

[doclegion]

I click tracked a demo i did
but prior to that i would turn on my metronome and just work on parts from songs we had so i would be tighter at playing
its the tempo transitions that fuck with me but after a few tries i got it
It also makes editing easier

 

[smy1]

How about recording it without a click? When I think of slavic folk music, I don't think of Meshuggah-style precision but about feeling and energy and dynamics. I'd go as far as saying that you may get a really stiff performance from playing to a click. It actually surprises me to see so many pro-click people here for that style of music.

If your drummer appears tight at rehearsal, you may actually get a really good recording. Even though you won't be able to cut & paste parts of the song as easily, but who cares?

 

[Ermz]

I have to agree. For Slavic music you probably don't need it. But all the same I maintain that anyone in the band should be capable of keeping good time with the click... good click time means good absolute time, and that's beneficial for you even if you play without one.

 

[Soundlurker]

Recording and editing an album recorded to a click can be a nightmare sometimes, let alone one that was recorded without a click.

If they refuse to use a click track then you'll have to be absolutely sure the takes sound good and once you've been recording for say 5 hours you no longer hav any idea what's good and what's not. Usually there's the click to provide some reference but you won't have it at your disposal. Basically the amount of frustration won't be less, it might be a little less for the drummer but everyone else will get a much more difficult job.

In case you decide to record without a click, my advice is to record guitars and/or other instruments as close to the click as possible and let him record the drums so that a mix of the drums and reference tracks sounds good, musically, without any editing.

 

[Nebulous]

How about recording it without a click? When I think of slavic folk music, I don't think of Meshuggah-style precision but about feeling and energy and dynamics. I'd go as far as saying that you may get a really stiff performance from playing to a click.

. good click time means good absolute time, and that's beneficial for you even if you play without one.

Moonlapses' point is what I'm aiming for here. I can see alot of potential in our album, so it's not so much that I want the drums completely to-the-grid tight, but rather they should be losely based around a set tempo, which will make it easier for all musicians to lock in when over-dubbing the masses of melodies, harmonies, leads and vocals.

In the first post I mentioned that alot of the "on a budget" artists from the Balkans use programmed drums when recording (even live), so I'm quite confident that an actual drummer playing in steady time will sound appropriate for the style.
I can definately see where you would consider that point though.

Usually there's the click to provide some reference but you won't have it at your disposal. Basically the amount of frustration won't be less, it might be a little less for the drummer but everyone else will get a much more difficult job.

In case you decide to record without a click, my advice is to record guitars and/or other instruments as close to the click as possible and let him record the drums so that a mix of the drums and reference tracks sounds good, musically, without any editing.

Yet another reason I'd like to use a click. Again, not only for the drummer, but the bass and harmonica seem to pull in the tempo, slowing it down, while I have a tendancy to try to do the oposite. It's a wander we're tight when we perform really.

I've considered having a backing track for the drummer to record to already, but my fear is that he will have just as much trouble with it.

I'm probably over reacting to their over reaction, so I'll try to give it more time.

 

[Nebulous]

Resurrecting this thread as tonight we finished the drum tracking. We decided to try it at my place instead of a studio and I'm quite pleased with the results. It took us three evenings, about 9 hours in total for 13 songs including setup. This was my fist drum tracking session in about three years, and I really missed it!
The result of the tracking to click and backing tracks went very well. Still some editing to be done but it was pointed out that my drummer was alot more comfortable and able when there was a backing track recorded to a click and no band to distract him.

I used some Ghetto room treamtment and XY overheads to get around the sound in my room and the sound is quite decent for what it is and what we require. Will probably post clips at a later stage.

What a load off!