Michael Moore rocks!

[ChiefB]

Man, I thought this post was dead. I think it's about time that we put a stake through its heart and bury it six feet under.

Bush may survive the next Presidential election but Blair will be booted out. The Commons Select Commitee is already investigating claims that the Government exagerrated its case for war. This has been backed up by written reports that have been leaked by MI5/MI6. The public and the media are in uproar over this whole situation.

At the end of the day we all have to face facts. The world is a very different place now, terrorists are everywhere and a clear signal needs to be sent out to those harboring terrorists - hand them over or face invasion. Whether the war with Iraq was right or wrong doesn't really matter anymore, because we need to ensure that these so called 'martyrs of freedom' are dealt with.

We live behind the code of war - the Geneva Convention, and these bastards don't have any ethical code. So I say once and for all lets get rid of this scum before more innocent people die.

Chief B

 

[JayKeeley]

Bush may survive the next Presidential election but Blair will be booted out. The Commons Select Commitee is already investigating claims that the Government exagerrated its case for war. This has been backed up by written reports that have been leaked by MI5/MI6. The public and the media are in uproar over this whole situation.

That's incredible! Not only will Blair be evicted from 10 Downing Street, but he'll go out with an investigation on his actions. He needs to get Bill Clintons team of lawyers!

You know, I had this whole thing written here about North Korea and the media changing things around, but I just aint gonna go there no more....it'll just blow up. So I'll stay Swiss.

I do think, however, that Blair is about to go through hell. Great Britain will make a field day out of this.

 

[Papa Josh]

I was probably one of the few that had an opportunity to read what you had originally and I was really looking forward to seeing the feedback..

That's too bad, as I really respected what you had to say. It was true stuff.

To Chief, I gotta say that "I thought this post was dead. I think it's about time that we put a stake through its heart and bury it six feet under," sounds to me like someone who wants to forget about and push it all under the carpet. I'm sure the Bush Administration would like that too.

Problem is, people like me aren't going to forget and we're going to continue to question the hypocrisy. The USA is not one to really be commenting on ethics.

And it seems there's a little too much paranoia out there these days, thanks to the media and the government, who also control most of the media. 9/11 was no different than Oklahoma, except for the # of people who died, no different than Waco, no different than Vietnam, no different than World War II... violence begat violence. Since the beginning of time, there have been "acts of terror." We live in a violent culture, if you want "to face the facts." Combine that aspect with the psychological weapon of fear and the world is a dangerous place.

 

[JayKeeley]

I was probably one of the few that had an opportunity to read what you had originally and I was really looking forward to seeing the feedback..

That's too bad, as I really respected what you had to say. It was true stuff.

Well, I dunno. I just want peace for everyone!

I don't really regard myself as a man of extremes - it seems like in America, you are either considered to be a liberal flower stroking hippy or a right wing conservative extremist who wants all Americans to speak English or die.

There seems to be little middle ground, although a forum discussion differs greatly to a friendly chat down the pub.

Look, I am not pro or against war (I do believe that one can see both sides of the argument as I do), but what I do believe in is justice and truth. Isn't that the 'American' way?

If it is, then I want to see the evidence now that led to the attacks on Iraq. Nobody can disagree with the fact that we went in to find WMD, and came out preaching that we liberated a country. What the hell kind of turnaround is that? Surely nobody can question that even in the slightest?

If the USA won't give up the evidence, then as a UK citizen, I expect to see something in writing from the UK's investigation council, especially if Blair is going to be questioned. And the UK will get it.

If there was ample proof, and absolutely no exxagerations had been made regarding the WMD etc, then there would be no need for an investigation. So that's what raises one eyebrow now.

If we ignore the threat of North Korea, then the other eyebrow gets raised. And so far, I see no campaign leading to North Korea...? I am curious as to how the 'pro-war' people feel about that because even they suggested that North Korea should be a target.

Blair could actually be convicted for this, and that would be a first in modern British history. Quite remarkable really.

 

[NAD]

Don't worry, we'll go after Iran and Syria before we attack North Korea (the only true threat in the world to the US besides Al Qaeda).

I still think there is no way Bush will get reelected, he sealed his fate with the Axis of Evil comment almost a year ago. The general American public does not like someone who uses their power, they like things nice and ineffectual. The current war happy mentality is quickly dying out (especially with the complete lack of WMD being found in Iraq), and as soon as it is gone the US will no longer want a trigger happy cowboy calling the shots.

I think the funniest part of the whole situation is the fact that Iraqi citizens are still waiting for their ability to self-rule. If the whole point was to liberate (it wasn't, but for argument's sake assume it was), then why is the interim government being run by Americans NOT allowing Iraqi self-rule until it meets certain requirements? Not to mention that the majority of Iraqi citizens look at the Islamic government of Iran for inspiration, wouldn't that be ironic to eliminate a secular military leader only to replace him with an Islamic extremist? Guess we'll have to go "liberate" them again if that happens.

 

[Papa Josh]

I agree with your every word here. I keep hearing "Iraq is a big country, give us time..." Time for what? To suddenly "find them?" If you had evidence and "intelligence" suggesting such, surely this wouldn't be as big of a problem that it is.

The reason we don't attack North Korea is simple, it's the same reason the playground bully doesn't pick on someone his own size, because he might get his ass kicked.

Iraq never was a threat, we just wanted their oil and Daddy couldn't get it the first time...

 

[J.]

It's unfortunate that Texas lost it's right to secede from the "good 'ol USA".... but like that would ever happen anyway...

That would be cool. :Spin:

Finding WMD in Iraq is now a double edged sword for the Bush Admin.

If they don't find them, they're fucked. Everyone will know they blew this thing out of proportion.

If they do find them, the US and the world will just assume that the CIA planted them there even if they were Saddma's weapons.

I don't think Bush will be there another four years either way. But democrats scare me because they are so "we don't wanna piss anyone off" it's ridiculous, so they take rights or privileges from some groups trying to equate them to other groups.

 

[JayKeeley]

Finding WMD in Iraq is now a double edged sword for the Bush Admin.

If they don't find them, they're fucked. Everyone will know they blew this thing out of proportion.

If they do find them, the US and the world will just assume that the CIA planted them there even if they were Saddma's weapons.

Agreed 100%. If the CIA do plant shit (and you know that's totally viable) they better do it soon, otherwise it'll look like a last ditch effort of desperation.

We have satellites that can watch you take a shit in a darkly lit outhouse in Montana. I tell you man, we can find underground silos when we need to. You never know, we may know exactly where the WMD are, but we're just taking our time to stay there longer....

I think staying there long enough will let all the US construction agencies get some big $$ out of it. God knows the economy needs it. I don't think contracts are going to Arab companies (or any companies other than US for that matter).

 

[Ayeka]

For example, since America offers free military training, arms, and military vehicles to Israel (including Black Hawk and Apache gunships), then aren't the Palestinians (or entire Arab world) allowed to feel the least bit resentful towards the USA?

And of course, I'm assuming that nobody would disagree with the UN council's declaration of Israel as an "appartheid regime". So you see, when one Arab is attacked, all Arabs tend to unite.

Sorry to stick my oar in so late, but...am I the only person here who sees Israel as the main reason for the September 11th attacks? Those planes hit the buildings as retaliation for American-sponsored persecution of Palestinians by Israel...those Israelis have managed to wrack up a fair list of war crimes, but I understand that Ariel Sharon now cannot be prosecuted for them. I get the feeling that we could save a lot of effort if, instead is trying to subjugate every Arab country that won't tow the party line, we redirected all the bombs to Israel. Suddenly they wouldn't be getting quite so mad at us...not like they belong their anyway. Could do with a bit of that arrogance being knocked out of 'em.

Another thing I find startling is how concerned Americans and Israelis suddenly became for the plight of Iraqi citizens when the war was looming. Honestly, how much did you care for them before? And where's the outbursts of sympathy for, say, those living under Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe? Where's the righteous forces of liberation for them?

The lack of willingness to question the Bush admin is disturbing in some people. You guys are being taken for a ride, you know that? Doesn't it bother you at all?

 

[NAD]

Sorry to stick my oar in so late, but...am I the only person here who sees Israel as the main reason for the September 11th attacks? Those planes hit the buildings as retaliation for American-sponsored persecution of Palestinians by Israel...those Israelis have managed to wrack up a fair list of war crimes, but I understand that Ariel Sharon now cannot be prosecuted for them. I get the feeling that we could save a lot of effort if, instead is trying to subjugate every Arab country that won't tow the party line, we redirected all the bombs to Israel. Suddenly they wouldn't be getting quite so mad at us...not like they belong their anyway. Could do with a bit of that arrogance being knocked out of 'em.

I've been saying this for years, Israel is America's biggest enemy because EVERYBODY hates them!

Another thing I find startling is how concerned Americans and Israelis suddenly became for the plight of Iraqi citizens when the war was looming. Honestly, how much did you care for them before? And where's the outbursts of sympathy for, say, those living under Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe? Where's the righteous forces of liberation for them?

Don't forget Rwanda and Burundi, and the Ivory Coast, and Sri Lanka, and...

The US government never operates out of sympathy, it just doesn't happen. Back to Israel, while some (including myself at times) may argue a Jewish conspiracy in Washington, fact of the matter is Israel has the best intelligence in the world, and we need that. If they didn't have that capability, we wouldn't support such a thoroughly oppressive regime. Talk about human rights violation, China and Israel run pretty neck and neck.

The lack of willingness to question the Bush admin is disturbing in some people. You guys are being taken for a ride, you know that? Doesn't it bother you at all?

The willingness is starting to come back, thankfully. Questioning authority is why America is here to begin with! There isn't anything more American than to protest your leaders, and perhaps make fun of the French!

 

[JayKeeley]

The willingness is starting to come back, thankfully. Questioning authority is why America is here to begin with!

NAD - what do you mean by 'coming back'? In your opinion, did it ever go away?

 

[NAD]

Oh definitely, all those people in Hollywood that were shunned (on the internet anyhow) because they were speaking out, and people saying that "if you protest, you're not American" etc. Granted, most of what those damn liberals in Hollywood were saying was bullplop, but regardless, protesting is the American way. Some were looked at like traitors, I'm sure we all have heard someone say "ohhh, did you forget 9/11 ALREADY!?!?" as if saying "W is dumb" is somehow being anti-American. Either way, I haven't seen as much of that lately, which is good, because as Americans it is our duty to question authority.

 

[haddsie]

Oh definitely, all those people in Hollywood that were shunned

What's even more amazing is how many people even listen to what 'all those people in Hollywood' were saying. They obviously have some extra wisdom in the area of politics that stems from their ability to act?!?!

I agree 200% with what you said below about America = the right to question authority, etc. I think it's a shame though that the people who are making real strides in science for example, or who are outstanding teachers/professors, or who are the real innovators within the political machine, are total unknowns. I don't think that actors, musicians, athletes necessarily need to be paid less attention (hey, I watch TV/movies, buy CDs, etc.), but there's room for a lot more.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

And it seems there's a little too much paranoia out there these days, thanks to the media and the government

Coming from the king of conspiracy theories himself.

9/11 was no different than Oklahoma, except for the # of people who died, no different than Waco, no different than Vietnam, no different than World War II... violence begat violence.

I'm not sure how I missed this gem. Honestly, dude, how do you come up with these things and then have the nerve to post them in public? 9/11 shared one similarity with Oklahoma. People died. Period. But to say they were 'no different' then each other is pretty much akin to fucking spitting in the face of the deceased. Don't go there. One was a deranged right-wing cocksucker who pathetically took a swipe at a group of faceless, nameless government employees and managed to crush an entire nursery in the process. The other was a radical militant terrorist faction responsible for thousands of deaths worldwide, was planned for 10+ years and resulted in the deaths of well over 3,500 innocent American (and foreign) citizens and arguably contributed to current shambles that is the American economy. How is this the same again?

I really didn't want to post again in this thread because, well, let's face it, apples will be apples and oranges will be oranges, and one can't become the other. But jesus fucking christ, don't trivialize what happened on 9/11. Maybe if it happened in your backyard you'd feel differently. Maybe if 2 of your high school peers died in the wreckage, you'd feel differently. Maybe if 17 out of your hometown's 11,000 people died that day, you'd feel differently.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

I don't think Bush will be there another four years either way. But democrats scare me because they are so "we don't wanna piss anyone off" it's ridiculous, so they take rights or privileges from some groups trying to equate them to other groups.

Agreed, the modern democrat/republican party split is so laughable it's silly. Democrats make me want to punch them in the fucking face, and ultra-conservative republicans make me want to hogtie them and drag 'em behind my car. What this country needs is a) someone with a brain and b) someone who isn't either party but will do what's best in the given situation. A moderate with left & right leanings when necessary if you will.

 

[Papa Josh]

Coming from the king of conspiracy theories himself.



I'm not sure how I missed this gem. Honestly, dude, how do you come up with these things and then have the nerve to post them in public? 9/11 shared one similarity with Oklahoma. People died. Period. But to say they were 'no different' then each other is pretty much akin to fucking spitting in the face of the deceased. Don't go there. One was a deranged right-wing cocksucker who pathetically took a swipe at a group of faceless, nameless government employees and managed to crush an entire nursery in the process. The other was a radical militant terrorist faction responsible for thousands of deaths worldwide, was planned for 10+ years and resulted in the deaths of well over 3,500 innocent American (and foreign) citizens and arguably contributed to current shambles that is the American economy. How is this the same again?

I really didn't want to post again in this thread because, well, let's face it, apples will be apples and oranges will be oranges, and one can't become the other. But jesus fucking christ, don't trivialize what happened on 9/11. Maybe if it happened in your backyard you'd feel differently. Maybe if 2 of your high school peers died in the wreckage, you'd feel differently. Maybe if 17 out of your hometown's 11,000 people died that day, you'd feel differently.

 

[Papa Josh]

...and the meek shall inherit the earth.

Or is it the weak?

Seriously, I'm sure I've spent more time reading about the inconsistencies of the government's case against the guy than you have, and from what I've read from actual FBI agents and the like is baffling.

Terrorism is a good excuse for the government to seize control of its people, which they basically do thru the media. It's no coincedence that Colin Powell's son is a central part of the FCC. This isn't rocket science, bro. Wake up and smell the shit you're drinking for coffee. :Smug:

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

You are so ridiculous it's funny. Good thing you know what you're talking about when it comes to music.

And the fact that you laughed at what I wrote about 9/11 leaves me, well, speechless to be honest. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Papa Josh]

You are so ridiculous it's funny. Good thing you know what you're talking about when it comes to music.

And the fact that you laughed at what I wrote about 9/11 leaves me, well, speechless to be honest. I'll leave it at that.

I love playing the devil's advocate. In case you haven't noticed....

As far as 9/11, yeah, I was horrified the day it happened, but unlike a lot of Americans I believe the blame lays on our government as well. I have a daughter, so I have had a lot of things put into perspective for me. One, is that killing is just fundamentally fucked, Two, death is for certain, accept it and live life while you can. I don't give two shits about a terrorist and I don't give one about G.W. Bush. 9/11 happened, get over it, it's over.

Or wait... it's not over, because our bullshit government never captured Osama Bin Laden and instead went after Saddam Hussein, a weak leader of a government beaten down by sanctions. And come to think of it, neither one of them have been captured or proven dead.

What's wrong with this fucking picture?

 

[NAD]

Osa....ma?

Our government is historically poor when it comes to tracking down a single individual, especially a leader. Look at Castro, we could never even kill him. "Ah screw it, how long could he live anyhow???" Whoops...