Mixing Lead & Rhythm guitar parts.

[David_VI]

I've read places that the lead guitar should be panned Centre. And the rhythm, L+R.
However I am confused by this. It makes sense if you have a solo but what if the leads are common?

In arrangement, this song has two guitar parts, one plays rhythm throughout with maybe a tiny bit of harmonising leads now and then and the other guitar is about 60% Lead melodies and 40% Rhythm (Different to other guitar's rhythm parts).

Now my problem lies with the guitar that is 60/40 lead/rhythm. I record its lead parts and rhythm parts on separate tracks, got that bit right? But then how do I pan?

Surely if its lead parts are panned center, when it switches to rhythm the center feels empty as its rhythm part is now in the L+R.... And when when the rhythm switches to lead surely the width is suddenly gone and the center is full? To me it seems like the ears would feel its a bit of an odd change and it would be really noticeable?

I'm sure this is a common thing that is dealt with a lot in melodic metal but how?
I am new to this so be kind if its obvious!
Cheers
David

 

[luismars]

Split the Lead guitar, pan the true Lead 100% Center. Fill the gaps with the same melody you use in the other guitar track and pan 100% Right or Left.

You can also pan each one full Left and Right to get that AC/DC feel

 

[David_VI]

Split the Lead guitar, pan the true Lead 100% Center. Fill the gaps with the same melody you use in the other guitar track and pan 100% Right or Left.

You can also pan each one full Left and Right to get that AC/DC feel

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand what you mean but i'm a bit lost with the filling the gaps?

One guitar only plays rhythm, except it gets one line in a break or so just so IRL the guitarists can have some fun and not be too bored!

But the other guitar plays lead and some rhythm.

Think Ensiferum where there's lead melodies but they aren't constant, the guitar plays rhythm parts as well (different to the other guitars) but there's only one rhythm part under the leads.

Thanks for the help so far!

 

[bryan_kilco]

Double track each rhythm and separate the "leads" up the center? But maybe use slight different amp/sim settings to give the leads their own unique character?

 

[rob w]

What a band plays live generally needs to be changed in the studio. I would generally get both guitars to play the rhythm left and right and treat guitar 2's melodies and leads as separate overdubs. Solos I would have in the centre and the melodies I would double track and blend in 50 or 80 percent left and right. You would probably need to make a slight. Eq cut in the rhythm on those bits.

 

[David_VI]

What a band plays live generally needs to be changed in the studio. I would generally get both guitars to play the rhythm left and right and treat guitar 2's melodies and leads as separate overdubs. Solos I would have in the centre and the melodies I would double track and blend in 50 or 80 percent left and right. You would probably need to make a slight. Eq cut in the rhythm on those bits.

I considered this, but then wouldn't I have to write extra rhythm for under the lead part that goes with the other guitars rhythm? Even though live you'd not hear that part? Or I just get the guitar that's playing the lead parts to play the rhythms parts as well, under the leads?

I understand this happens with solos, in bands where there's one guitarist, there's still rhythm guitar behind it on CD. But in this case I feel confused.

Another thing while i'm here.. while experimenting with my demo's. I tried double tracking the lead guitar parts, recording them twice but it sounded messy and awful. Is it better to record them once and just duplicate and then use different amp settings (re-amping or modelling) to create a fuller sound.. This may just be i'm not that tight but I thought I was! Same with the rhythm, it just sounded messier with more than one recorded track.

Sorry I am a bit of a newbie with this and find it hard to grasp some of these things! But I'm very grateful for you guys taking the time to help me out.

 

[Redoubt9000]

Not that I do this, but the thought occurred to me just now. Perhaps in your bass processing, spreading the stereo image a bit while still retaining your typical bass down center. As in two additional unique bass performances panned L/R, that are also distorted to help make them more indistinguishable to your center panned bass. This may help give a bit more meat to your lead performances when they take over your usual rhythm guitar runs, but also help fill the gap you're experiencing when the rhythm guitars are absent. I would just keep to processing the low/mids of these additional bass guitars, and keeping a subtle volume to them. Your bass writing wouldn't deviate from what you already have tracked down, but it would help grant a bit more body while breaking away from getting locked into a centered sound that would result from just copy/pasting the bass track you already have. Automating a different tone with your lead guitars in addition to this will help too no doubt.

Dont rule out the use of synths when it comes to filling up those gaps either. I sometimes find my writing and mixing hinges on the fact I'm using background synths or samples that help fill in the sound more. The same may go with fx on the lead guitars, whether it be an impulse for a room verb or whatnot.

I wouldn't mind hearing how that works out tho, if someone usually does this in terms of the bass guitar - let us know how it works out! (not near equipment : / )

 

[rob w]

You can have both guitars panned l and r (old school slayer style) it can sound good with a decent bass sound and performance. I however would rework guitar 2 so that it is more of a rhythm guitar (keeping it's own rhythm parts and following guitar1 and overdub it's melody and solos. You wouldn't have to write any more parts, just record more. I hope that makes sense mate. Also, I would record one take of a solo (unless it's got harmonies). You don't want your solo to be thick just tidy and sitting in the mix nicely. A lot of solos I mix sound quite thin on their own.

 

[rob w]

Ensiferum tend to always have 2 rhythms panned left and right regardless of melodies etc..also check it out on headphones to see (hear) how it's layered.

 

[David_VI]

You can have both guitars panned l and r (old school slayer style) it can sound good with a decent bass sound and performance. I however would rework guitar 2 so that it is more of a rhythm guitar (keeping it's own rhythm parts and following guitar1 and overdub it's melody and solos. You wouldn't have to write any more parts, just record more. I hope that makes sense mate. Also, I would record one take of a solo (unless it's got harmonies). You don't want your solo to be thick just tidy and sitting in the mix nicely. A lot of solos I mix sound quite thin on their own.

I think I get you. So the 2nd guitar is pretty much now going to go through the whole song. Where it would be playing leads its playing rhythm parts that the other guitar is playing (or maybe new rhythm parts) but then overdub/record the actual lead parts on a separate track.

Then in theory, when the lead parts go away the rhythm can come through and when the leads come back the rhythm takes a back seat?

But then you have loads of rhythm, even when the lead is playing? I suppose this is fine though as when the lead parts come and go the rhythm parts don't suddenly disappear and re-appear in the spaces on the L + R (if you know what I mean?)

I suppose that's my best shot so far!

Expect more Q's from me regarding how to make guitars actually sound tight and not messy though.. I'll give Ensiferum a close listen. Maybe do a rough Paint picture of the space so I can see if I get what you mean also..

Redoubt9000, thanks for your reply, it is also useful, although you saying bass is confusing, you mean the rhythm guitars right?

 

[rob w]

Yeah i think we're on the same page. The solo i would have in the centre and melodies have between 50 and 80 %. Remember not to use the exact same take left or right as that would just be mono. Sorry if that's patronising.

 

[Redoubt9000]

Mmmm no I mean additional distorted bass tracks where rhythm guitars are absent. I'll experiment on it later on when I get my setup running again, just to see for myself how it would sound.

EDIT: Results were less than stellar, but I recorded rhythm guitars as well and it had an interesting effect. It filled it out some when the rhythm guitars were absent, I didn't care for it tbh. Write out the leads further down the fretboard would be my suggestion : /

 

[David_VI]

Mmmm no I mean additional distorted bass tracks where rhythm guitars are absent. I'll experiment on it later on when I get my setup running again, just to see for myself how it would sound.

EDIT: Results were less than stellar, but I recorded rhythm guitars as well and it had an interesting effect. It filled it out some when the rhythm guitars were absent, I didn't care for it tbh. Write out the leads further down the fretboard would be my suggestion : /

Ah, I see!

Well, most of the leads in the song are quite low infact, using E minor from 7th fret on A string.. I was thinking of rewriting them all higher. What makes a lead a lead? Maybe its just a riff?

Infact I have a rough demo of the song while I was experimenting a few weeks back.
Might give a better idea of the sound.

This is truly a demo though, it sounds awful compared to later versions, but those lack most of the guitar parts so won't be a good example

http://soundcloud.com/david_vi/for-victory-wip
20secs main song kicks in with the main lead melody
Notice at 30secs, thats where both guitars start playing rhythm.

Another version which is the full song, very basic.. missing a lot, but this is just to show the sound and lead/rhythms. (ignore the lsolo later in song, just an awful mess about to see if a solo fits in that place.. rather embarrassing!
http://soundcloud.com/david_vi/what-a-mess

Can see i've got a lot to learn about mixing!
Cheers

 

[Terminus]

There's no rule that says you can't play single note lead licks within the rhythm tracks. Do what sounds good. I've done it that way plenty of times, and also with the leads on a separate track w/ delay and reverb. Basically just do what the song calls for and it should turn out fine.

 

[Mago]

I think it really depends on what they are playing and how...lots of different ways to do this really!
edit: damn, just saw now that you allready posted clips, will listen to them lol
edit2: wow, 2nd one really is a mess...for the 1st clip I think it could work most of the time, you can try to quadtrack the stuff and play a bit with panning automation for the different parts.
Thats what I did with the last band I did, which had one who did mostly ryhthm and the other who did lead stuff through half of the song, but had harmonized bits when he also did rhythm.
kinda hard to hear what is going on at ~30secs tho

 

[David_VI]

I think it really depends on what they are playing and how...lots of different ways to do this really!
edit: damn, just saw now that you allready posted clips, will listen to them lol
edit2: wow, 2nd one really is a mess...for the 1st clip I think it could work most of the time, you can try to quadtrack the stuff and play a bit with panning automation for the different parts.
Thats what I did with the last band I did, which had one who did mostly ryhthm and the other who did lead stuff through half of the song, but had harmonized bits when he also did rhythm.
kinda hard to hear what is going on at ~30secs tho

Cheers for the feedback! I've been ill past few days so haven't had a chance to get back at it but look forward to it.

Yup is a mess. I'm just a guy trying to record his old songs so they are finally put to rest, also using it for a demo production module at uni. I'm not doing a tech course, so my mixing abilities are bare minimum and i've learnt most of it through trial and error the past few weeks.. No idea what i'm doing most the time! The vocals were recorded in a bedroom with a 58 not even on a mic stand.. :|

I regret adding timp and strings because it seems a hell to mix even for you experience guys.. Eek.

 

[rob w]

Definitely some strong ideas there, also some cluttered bits, but recorded and mixed well this could be really good.

 

[David_VI]

Definitely some strong ideas there, also some cluttered bits, but recorded and mixed well this could be really good.

Thanks for your kind words!
Got a lot of learning to do, i've been going through the pages of this forum and reading anything that might help me out. Seems a great place so far!

Maybe i'll make a thread where I can ask ongoing questions as I do this demo.. hmmm good idea?

 

[Shinozoku]

I considered this, but then wouldn't I have to write extra rhythm for under the lead part that goes with the other guitars rhythm? Even though live you'd not hear that part? Or I just get the guitar that's playing the lead parts to play the rhythms parts as well, under the leads?

I understand this happens with solos, in bands where there's one guitarist, there's still rhythm guitar behind it on CD. But in this case I feel confused.

Another thing while i'm here.. while experimenting with my demo's. I tried double tracking the lead guitar parts, recording them twice but it sounded messy and awful. Is it better to record them once and just duplicate and then use different amp settings (re-amping or modelling) to create a fuller sound.. This may just be i'm not that tight but I thought I was! Same with the rhythm, it just sounded messier with more than one recorded track.

Sorry I am a bit of a newbie with this and find it hard to grasp some of these things! But I'm very grateful for you guys taking the time to help me out.

Yes. Simply get him to double the rhythm player's parts.

You are, in fact, probably that inconsistent. Listen to old Sabbath and Ozzy records. The leads are double tracked and fairly tight, but then they split up sometimes. Done properly it can create a really oldschool vibe. But just woodshed til you can play to a metronome perfectly. Then shoot for the solo doubling.

 

[David_VI]

Yes. Simply get him to double the rhythm player's parts.

You are, in fact, probably that inconsistent. Listen to old Sabbath and Ozzy records. The leads are double tracked and fairly tight, but then they split up sometimes. Done properly it can create a really oldschool vibe. But just woodshed til you can play to a metronome perfectly. Then shoot for the solo doubling.

I'll have to give it a go, like many people say, its about trying it out. Sadly i've had no chance to yet, still got mega man flu!

I didn't want to create a new thread just asking this but could anyone recommend some good affordable headphones for mixing on? I know monitors are preferred but I have not the room, or ability to treat the room properly, plus i'm moving soon, being a student.. Monitors aren't really an option yet.

I did a bit of searching and the Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO headphones seem to come up top a lot, and at around £125 on Amazon, affordable enough.

Are there any others to consider around this price range?
Cheers