Mixing Methods: some questions

[Behind]

Hi guys:

After 2 years mixing stuff and trying to learn a lot from everywhere, there are still some questions I'd like to clarify.

-When you are mixing a song, do you eq, compress, etc, soloing the track (guitars for example) or you do it while playing all the tracks at the same time to see in real time what you're doing to the "whole" thing.

-I've been reading that some "big guys" tend to mix at whisper volumes. What is the benefit of this?

-And the last but not least, there is something that is driving me crazy: BASS! Once I asked where's the limit of adding bass to the mix. I ended up by listening reference Cds but that is just a mess. It depends on the style, the decade they were done and so many factors that I get lost among that vast amount of bass sounds and bass volumes.

Some will say "do what sounds best"... but it's really confusing here when you reach that point where you don't really know what to do anymore. You cannot make a difference between what's right or wrong, so some advice here would be really appreciated!

 

[TheDriller]

- I generally make adjustments "in context", that is, with everything playing back. trying to EQ the guitars on their own without the other elements can lead you to make the guitars sound good on their own, but when you bring in the drums and the bass they sound like shit. the elements need to work together, not sound great in their own right, but sound great in the context of the mix. however, soloing the tracking can sometimes be useful for hunting down problem frequencies.

-a few reasons, firstly, loud volumes can be very misleading, giving a false sense of awesomeness which is lost as soon as you turn the volume down even a tiny bit. generally, a mix that sounds great at low volume will sound even better when it's cranked up.

-bass? can't really offer much advice there really, i'm sure someone will chime in.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

1) I hunt for errors (ear piercing frequency spikes that are clearly unwanted and such) and get the overall tone in the ballpark with the track soloed, but always, always finally process the tracks while listening to the other tracks. My basic workflow is to start with the drums and unmute tracks and build the mix as I go, advancing to bass, guitars, vocals and so on. Once everything is unmuted, I do the final mix and make the song work as a whole. Personally I like this way, because I'm building a foundation for the mix as I open the tracks one after another. When all the tracks are unmuted, the basic mix is already there and I just have to go back to the beginning and make sure everything works together. After that, it's tweaking time. The order is a matter of preference, though. Some like to start with the vocals, but usually I find it easiest to start with the drums when working on metal music.

2) The downside to mixing at loud volumes is that you can easily get a warped perspective on the mix, fooling yourself that it sounds better than it actually does. When you really feel that kick drum pumping your stomach, you might get distracted by problems with the overall balance and such. Then again, if you only mix at whisper volumes, you might get a better overall balance but miss some important fine details. I once tried the whisper approach and in the end it turned out there was some click bleed audible in one of the quieter passages on the record when really cranked. Gladly the band noticed it before the master went off to duplication, but it was really awkward. So, my advice would be to vary the mixing volume. Do most of the work at a volume that really feels the most comfortable to you, but always check your work at very low and loud volumes, too, to make sure there aren't any "hidden" problems.

3) It shouldn't be overpowering but still making the whole mix powerful and punchy. Other than that, it's a style, feel and taste matter. It really is impossible to give a straight answer to that, sorry, especially without hearing what you're talking about. It's like asking how much salt should be used in a soup without specifying what kind of soup you're making and whether you even like salty food or not. The low end is always difficult to get right and it just takes a lot of practice and critical listening.

 

[Styvo]

The Driller and Jarkko have given you some very good tips and insight already.
I would like to add that besides the above mentioned reasons for mixing at different levels in order to hear things that perhaps you might otherwise miss, an important element when mixing loud is having a treated room that you know will allowe your work to be represented and translate accurately.
The louder you mix the more the room treatement comes into play however at lower levels this is less of a factor.

I work in a similar fashion to Jarkko in that i like to bring elements of the track in and take things out whislt making descision based on performance and the track's compositon.
Music is emotion and in this regard we can forget about right's and wrong's.

When in doubt trust your ears and most importantly have the courage to make descision based on your experinece and the vision you have for the track you are working on.

You'll know if it doesn't sound right and within that you won't be wrong.

 

[RiF]

-When you are mixing a song, do you eq, compress, etc, soloing the track (guitars for example) or you do it while playing all the tracks at the same time to see in real time what you're doing to the "whole" thing.

Do every adjustment with all tracks running. You want to make a whole mix and not a single track sound good, right? When in solo-mode, you mute the context. Don't do any mix-affecting things in solo-mode, just solo if you're working on a single track and you're working on stuff that does only apply to this single track (but what can that be?).

-I've been reading that some "big guys" tend to mix at whisper volumes. What is the benefit of this?

Listen as low in volume as possible. The ear starts to compress and the frequency reception changes (see Fletcher-Munson curve) at higher volumes. If you turn down the volume very low, you will hear better if the volume balances between the tracks are right or wrong. I sometimes even put down my headphones (if I mix on them) on the table and listen to what comes out of them. It reveals interesting stuff. Just try it! And mixing on very low volumes can even replace the need for headphones (neighbors, family, you know it...).

-And the last but not least, there is something that is driving me crazy: BASS! Once I asked where's the limit of adding bass to the mix. I ended up by listening reference Cds but that is just a mess. It depends on the style, the decade they were done and so many factors that I get lost among that vast amount of bass sounds and bass volumes.

I use references mixes all the time to re-calibrate my ears. In my opinion, all good mixes from whatever genre share a common overall frequency curve. That said, there IS a common sense for a "good" frequency curve across almost all genres.
Getting the bass right is the hardest thing to do. Reference mixes and good monitors and a treated room will help here. If your monitors do not reveal what's going on down there or your room plays tricks with the bass, you're out of luck, though. Headphones are way too forgiving in the lows, so they are no help either and usually make things worse (at least for me).
Bass needs a lot of space in the mix to be right, so keep an eye/ear of all instruments that occupy bass-estate. In a metal/rock mix, nothing but the kick and the electric bass should be down there. Cut away everything else. Especially guitars like to cover the whole frequency spectrum and (back to point #1) if solo'd you'll want to keep or even add bass to them. In a mix, you have to cut away everything that doesn't bring the whole mix forward.
And don't forget the even more important 300-500 Hz range. Stuff likes to pile up there like there's no tomorrow!

Some will say "do what sounds best"... but it's really confusing here when you reach that point where you don't really know what to do anymore. You cannot make a difference between what's right or wrong, so some advice here would be really appreciated!

Reference mixes can help. Having a mix vision helps a lot. Have a vision of what you want to have in the end. If you don't, you don't know if you're there and you will run in circles (not even that, because this would assume that you know around what point you're running). Don't reference to references mixes once you're almost finished with your mix. You'll never reach the references mix (mainly because it's most likely to be different song...), so you have to walk the last miles alone.
Commit to things once you think it's good and don't think anymore about it. It's hard, I know... That's why I went to outboard gear without a total recall feature ;-).

All the best!

 

[InAbsentia_]

I have the opposite problem. I tend to mix at low volumes, but when I turn it up, it sounds like shit to me. I'm never happy with a brickwall limit or the such.

 

[jimwilbourne]

I have the opposite problem. I tend to mix at low volumes, but when I turn it up, it sounds like shit to me. I'm never happy with a brickwall limit or the such.

I had that problem when I started listening to the suggestions to mix quietly.

my approach:
mix a a volume that is loud enough that I can "feel" it but still not loud.
then move the volume up and down checking the mix to make sure it sounds decent at all volumes.

 

[joshwheelermusic]

1) Yes. (...sometimes)

2) You shouldn't lose any main factors of the mix. It also makes it a lot easier to hear the music as a "listener" instead of zoning in on individual instruments and hearing it more as a "musician".

3) Can't fix it if you can't hear it. Bass traps Bass traps Bass traps. trust me.

 

[eligortyphon06]

1) As said above, Its best to use a little bit of both. Start by muting all tracks, except bass. I like to think of the bass as the foundation for low end in my mixes (metal especially). It kind of sets the mood . From here on add one track at a time mixing as you go. Don't expect that every time you add a track, you're done with the previous one. The point is to break down each track one at a time. Before you start your self-critiscm of the mix, take a break, smoke a cigarette, masturbate. Just give your ears a chance to relax. When you come back, you'll be able to notice some issues you want to tackle, and you can adjust each track accordingly. I find this extremely useful with eq, ie. making more room for other tracks.

2) In my experience, I find that you're ears are definitely more acute to pick up things like noise at a lower volume. Even if your mix fucking rocks while being blasted, you might just be so into it you'll forget to listen for come issues like noise.

3) My favorite instrument to record. The bass. I know this is heard so commonly, but don't try to find one technique to track or mix bass that is some "dream solution". First off, this will hurt you when you run into problems later (every approach has its benefits and disadvantages), and secondly, if you care about it enough you'll be willing to just keep trying new things. I hope you're not just approaching it the same way and expecting a different result every time... For me, I always "heard" it was better to DI your bass, and for the longest time I could not get it the way I wanted. So, I started playing around with micing a bass cab, and was astounded at the results. Had to do barely anything during the mixing process. Even now, I still try new techniques, although I'm completely satisfied with micing up my Ampeq SVT-3 Pro.

Just keep trying new ideas you come up with on your own, not just the ones you read on this forum. A lot of people do say "do what sounds best." The fun in it is finding what "best" really means to you.

 

[Behind]

Thankyou so much guys for the answers.

The first mixes I did, I used to eq and compress the tracks individually until I discovered that it wasn't necessary at all. I was able to listen the tracks of some albums (rockband stuff) and it was amazing how some tracks sounded like shit. So it's not a matter of "what sounds best" individually, but "what sounds best in context".

Concerning the whispering volume, I have been trying this lately and it's amazing how some stuff pop up suddenly. So it has been easier to me to find spots were things are too low or too loud in volume. It's a really amazing trick when doing right. The bad thing of this is that you could easily overdo it, something that could end as a sterile mix.

 

[Morgan C]

- I usually listen in the mix, then solo any problem instruments and try to fix it, then put it back in the mix to see the effect. I have a hard time hearing what I'm doing behind the wash of other instruments, and don't always trust that I've fixed the problem then. However, sometimes this leads to going too far the other way.

- Vary the volume. The EQ curve changes as volume increases, becoming more scooped. I forget what it's called, but I once mixed a song at really loud volumes, and it sounded awesome, then when I brought it back down it was pure mids. I'm sure the exact opposite problem would occur if you mixed only really quietly. I also like to convert the mix into mono, really helps for getting the snare/vocal level right.

 

[Zozobra]

- Vary the volume. The EQ curve changes as volume increases, becoming more scooped. I forget what it's called, but I once mixed a song at really loud volumes, and it sounded awesome, then when I brought it back down it was pure mids. I'm sure the exact opposite problem would occur if you mixed only really quietly. I also like to convert the mix into mono, really helps for getting the snare/vocal level right.

'Fletcher munson effect' and 'equal loudness curves' (same effect, improved data).

How the human perception of relative volume of different frequencies changes with actual volume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves

This one of the reasons its unwise to mix loud. The other is plain old neurology; loud music has a subtle adrenal effect; its a bit more exciting whether it should be or not.

A mix that sounds good quiet should sound good loud. Not vice versa.

I always mix a little above whisper; polite TV volumes, and check that everythings still there when very low and that it has the desired effect/s when cranked.

 

[xFkx]

i'll go all buddah and say...

sometime you will make adjustment with the trucks solo'd, other times in the context of the mix.

You will mix at whisper volume, after that you will return to normal volume, later to return to whisper again and so on..