mixing symphonic metal kinda stuff - hints?

[Fragle]

hey guys,

i'll shortly be mixing a symphonic melodic death metal band...sorta. similar to children of bodom i'd say, lots of guitar melodies, intricate drum lines, and most of all SYNTHS. a SHITLOAD of different synth lines.

most of the stuff i did so far was rather straightfoward, the usual gtr/bass/drums/vocals metal, you know it, so this is new ground for me.

any pointers regarding how to mix this kinda stuff?

i haven't approached the mix yet as the vocals still need to be tracked, but listening to the instrumental tracks i figured that it's very important to give each instrument it's own sonic space, which consequently means reducing everything to it's bare bones frequency wise, and strictly filtering/eqing out everything that's not absolutely essential....lots of small sounding elements forming a giant one, so to speak.
probably loads of automation too.
also, at first listen there seem to be a few synth melodies that just don't match with the rest of the music very well...for example a synth lead during a guitar lead, with the first section harmonizing the guitars (sounds fine), but it get's all messy after that. i guess i'll have to make choices and either mute the guitars or the synth. i briefly tried hard panning the melodies (nevermore sell my heart for stones guitar solo style, basically), but it just doesn't match at all - i have no idea what this guy was thinking.

i just wonder if there are a few basic procedures so to say in terms of how to tackle this.
i know e.g. CLA is pretty big on compressing everything to pieces which gives each instrument it's own space, but i'm not quite sure how that works. i obviously know how to get drums up front with proper compression, but i'm not sure how to make something sound *smaller* so it's easier to fit into the big picture without having it sound like total shit.

 

[Nebulous]

Automation will probably be your friend. I'm going to face a similar senario soon with a friends power metal band. Some parts have vocals, backing vocals, rhythm, "lead rhythm" and synths trying to take centre stage all at the same time.
With these parts I feel it's a matter of deciding what will be granted centre stage and what will have to be in the background "adding something" wihtout really cutting through.
As you mentioned, giving each element a controlled dynamic and specific purpose in the freq spectrum will help immensely.
At one point in my venture I think I will have to really "tale away" from an instrument just to get it to sit as required, eg, rhythm guitar with lead rhythm guitar part at the same time.

Also, I haven't tried this yet, but I think I may try to drop some instruments to mono or reduce the stereo spread in those cluttered parts.

I guess it's hard to give advice without hearing it first.
One thing I did when I tracked the material was to ask that the keys were transposed to an octave that wasn't going to interfere with the rest of the instruments.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

its all in the eq balance of each instrument, and deciding which tracks need be heard and which ones can be sacrificed to be part of the background. You might have to sample replace to get the most slid drum sounds possible. Basically you aretryi9ng to get the tracks to be as clinical as possible and then you can slop things up when you need to glue things together. Use automation to push lines that need to be heard and then pull back on that track when it needs to sit in the background. Rememebr that you won't be able to hear everything like you would with a 4 piece, its just part of the beast.

If you want to get a reference, listen to bands like bodom, nightwish, mercenary, dimmu borgir etc.

 

[vespiz]

Arrangement. If things clash badly (like you said in your post), then MUTE is your friend here.

Nightwish reminded me that Mikko Karmila said in an interview that while mixing, he had to leave
the guitars a bit more darker than usual, so that there would be more room for the orchestra.

I hear the same in the new Blind Guardian album, especially on the more busy orchestrated songs.
They dropped the guitar levels as well, compared to other songs in there.

Sometimes an element that appears several times during a song, you can push it up a little bit the very first
time you hear it and then push it back a little as the song progresses. Especially if there are other elements
that are added along the way. You've already "introduced" that sound/element and the brain hears it, even
if it is lower, because we expect it to be there. (Psychoacoustics, I believe?)

 

[Fragle]

thanks for the input!
i'll post a clip in a couple of days. vocals still need to be tracked but the rest is finished.
drums are programmed in SSD, btw, so at least they are very clean and there's not a lot of bleed and natural ambience cluttering up the mix.
tight sounds? well, i wish the guitar player could actually PLAY the guitar. gtrs are only double tracked too as it just wasn't happening with 4 tracks.
well, i'll post a clip soon...

 

[Nebulous]

For that material I wouldn't even attempt 4 tracks of the same part on guitar.

 

[Fragle]

sorry, took me a while.

here's what i got so far.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1296348/Andy Sneap Forum Files/Hollow Light Testmix.mp3

no automation yet, as i didn't see the point doing it without having vocals tracked yet.

any hints will be greatly appreciated!

 

[vespiz]

Some thoughts that came up..

Lead guitars are out of tune at spots. The first part is too busy or somethings really out of tune there, can't really make out what I should be listening. Arrangement plays a part in this as well. That vocal pad is out of tune! Check that one out.
Rhythm guitars are a bit muddy. Can't hear the orchestral elements that much?
The part starting at about 4:00 sounds cool, except that vocal stuff that goes way up there sounds fake. I'd try another instrument - violins? - to replace/continue up in that register. Maybe you can't do anything so in which case.. er.. dunno, without trying out!

Did I mention arrangement?

 

[Fragle]

thanks for the input.....pretty bad stuff, eh?

- lead guitars: that's just the guy bending the strings in an uncontrolled fashion. he just didn't stop it...i can't count the parts where we intentionally whacked the guitar out of tune to compensate for his bending fingers, like when fingering chords for example...., that 4:00 part comes to mind here
- first part is too busy indeed. and i already cut like 3 voices iirc....
- choir part doesn't match the rhythm guitars at all times (hence the out of tune comment), that's why i kept it quite low in the mix. i guess muting is not an option as it's quite a central theme in the song
- just got wave files for all synths, no midi. gotta deal with what i have here.
- muddy rhythm guitars - that's just the lack of proper picking technique.

thanks a lot for the input!

oh, and btw: arrangement.....i should post a clip with ALL the synth lines playing....i'm a big fan of the alternative intro/refrain choir this guy recorded. while the one you can here in this clip just sounds weird, the alternative one doesn't match the guitars AT ALL. it's like....guitars E-C-D-B, synth D-B-B-A or something haha

 

[vespiz]

Oh gods..

Well, all things considered, you're doing a good job and there's not much else you can do about it. Except maybe have a little talk with the band..?

Good luck!