Need some help developing some depth and intensity with harsh vocals

[tempe]

Hi guys, I've been having a little bit of a problem with harsh vocals in particular lately. I'm really struggling to get that super forward and intense sound, that you can really hear on most modern metal mixes. But at the same time the vocals have an intense back to front depth that I just can't seem to get a hang of.

What I've been doing is doing the same as I've been doing with cleans. Utilizing the staged compression trick thats been discussed here a few times, with each instance of compression each achieving a certain thing to push the vocal a little forward, without increasing its overall level which I find in my experience makes them feel way to separated from the mix.

I finished up this mix
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7270929/Dissipate.mp3
yesterday and I'm pretty happy with the way the band is sounding but the vocals just feel lacking to me. This guy in my opinion is not the strongest of vocalists but I still feel that there is room to make them stronger

Vocal chain was something along the lines of
SM7b - RME fireface pre -
C4 to control some plosive and sibilance issues (this was tracked handheld in the control room FWIW)
Digi EQ - High pass at around 150, a cut at 400 and a cut at around 1.2k
Jack Joseph Puig EQ - Around 4 dB of high shelf at 10k, broadband
L1 limiter - taking off around 1-2dB on the peaks
CLA76 - All buttons in Medium attack, fast release to give it some excitement
PSP vintage warmer - Drive at about 15% to dirty up the vocal a bit
Soundtoys decapitator - tape setting, set slightly dark. I really like how this plug makes things sit in the mix

I had a few sends as well
I had the vocal sent to a saturation bus where I used Soundtoys echoboy with a 0ms delay time on the studio tape setting, driven really hard. I blended this to taste then EQ'd the return to notch out some things I didn't like that it was doing to the low end and high mids.

I also had a verb send which is just D-Verb, EQ'd on the return to dampen some the highs further as well as to roll off everything under about 400hZ as I thought it was just muddying things up. The verb I believe was short plate

I also used another instance of Echoboy with a stereo delay that I automated every now and then to add some colour.

The vocal itself was heavily automated, just about every phrase, with some parts moving steadily up and down to help the vocal sit right. I'm sure I'm over processing but at the same time I wouldn't know what to get rid of.

Please help guys I feel my vocals are really holding my mixes back!

(also I know the guitar tone is a bit lame, it was my first attempt at micing a 6505 and Mesa cab, being a bass player I havent quite found the need for getting a nice metal tube amp)

Thanks!

 

[bryan_kilco]

I'm only on laptop speakers now, but the vocals seem sort of dark in the mix. Maybe boost a bit of high end?

 

[tempe]

I think I may have overdone the decapitator thing, as I'm already boosting quite a bit, same deal though. I'll give it a go!

 

[Charles J]

you need to treat/process the variety of vocal styles he does differently; i.e. : highs get sent to one bus, lows to another, bg vox to another, the 'yelling' type vox to another.

i usually use a similar chain on each bus, BUT they will all vary enough for this technique to work best.

there's no way in hell you can get a great vocal track when dude is all over the place, stylistically and you're trying to treat it as all the same...

i would compress everything more (the highs sound really good to me, actually) and LP all the vox at 12k.

boom. instantly they'll sit in the mix.

 

[fatalforce]

I see what you mean. Sometimes you can get carried away and over process which leads you to not know where the problems are. When I reach this point I usually strip everything off the track and start over. It will give you a new prospective of how you need to treat it.

 

[Tommy Gun]

I see what you mean. Sometimes you can get carried away and over process which leads you to not know where the problems are. When I reach this point I usually strip everything off the track and start over. It will give you a new prospective of how you need to treat it.

+100
I think we've all been guilty of it at some point.

 

[tempe]

you need to treat/process the variety of vocal styles he does differently; i.e. : highs get sent to one bus, lows to another, bg vox to another, the 'yelling' type vox to another.

i usually use a similar chain on each bus, BUT they will all vary enough for this technique to work best.

there's no way in hell you can get a great vocal track when dude is all over the place, stylistically and you're trying to treat it as all the same...

i would compress everything more (the highs sound really good to me, actually) and LP all the vox at 12k.

boom. instantly they'll sit in the mix.

There is not a facepalm image large enough for how I am feeling right now. I cannot believe I did not even consider that. Thanks CJ! I'm finish off the rest of the tracks for this band tomorrow so I'll give that a go.

 

[Charles J]

There is not a facepalm image large enough for how I am feeling right now. I cannot believe I did not even consider that. Thanks CJ! I'm finish off the rest of the tracks for this band tomorrow so I'll give that a go.

right on dude! it happens =D

 

[RedDog]

you need to treat/process the variety of vocal styles he does differently; i.e. : highs get sent to one bus, lows to another, bg vox to another, the 'yelling' type vox to another.

i usually use a similar chain on each bus, BUT they will all vary enough for this technique to work best.

there's no way in hell you can get a great vocal track when dude is all over the place, stylistically and you're trying to treat it as all the same...

i would compress everything more (the highs sound really good to me, actually) and LP all the vox at 12k.

boom. instantly they'll sit in the mix.

+9 billion.

I had to mark at least 15 times on one 3 minute song for a vocalist who had lows where he cupped the mic and was quiet as a mouse pissing on cotton, but loud and shrill as all hell when he sang. then he started screaming, and then he would yell into screaming, a la attack attack! and I just about cried of joy when he left the session. I think I had 5 tracks of comp'd vox just for one song. Cleans had more verb, lows had more compression. So on, so forth.