neo-classical

[razoredge]

technically, technically, technically...

when metal heads talk about neo classical metal they are talking about metal influenced by primarily Yngwie who was influenced by Baroque and excuse my spelling Pagnini, as well as Rhoades and Roth. Which as mention by the one dude...... nearly 5 years ago, use of harmonic minor. Symphony X took this in their overall music to a level far beyond Yngwie who is a great soloist until you realize hes repeating himself but not much of a song man. thats my simplistic approach to understanding it.

Otherwise check out neoshredders page as Im sure hes more into neo than I am. Symphony X's use of the sound is all I need to know.

 

[neoshredder]

The early Yngwie Malmsteen songs were great. Rising Force, Marching Out, and Trilogy are classics. After that, he went downhill and got boring imo. A lot of good shredders other than Yngwie. Uli Jon Roth, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Joey Tafolla, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman, and etc. myspace.com/neoclassicalfusion has a lot of great stuff on it. Anyone wanting to learn more about this genre should check it out.

 

[Matt]

Those old posts are fucking retarded.

Dark Moor is good neoclassical as well as SymX, who rule.

 

[challenge_everything]

Yeah but you guys are still missing the point - while you might refer to bands like SymX as neoclassical, the fact is, they're simply not. This guy puts it best:

Plenty of ignorant folk (as exemplified in this thread) think neoclassicalism is some sort of description of metal bands who rip off baroque melodies and apply them to fairly straightforward metal/rock music. I don't mean to come down hard on you guys, but that's just really insulting the whole idea....

Yngwie Malmsteen and Symphony X have almost nothing in common with classical music... *just* the melody (and they're ripping off BAROQUE music, not classical). How many classical pieces can you name where every instrument plays parallel subjects (because the guitar and bass in "neoclassical" metal bands follow each other 99% of the time)? How many pieces are verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-chorus-etc structured?

 

[razoredge]

yada yada yada..... let me help you and the other Mr. technically, technically, technically from 5 years ago.....

In metal, when someone is talking metal and says neo classical and leave off the word metal, it doenst mean that are no longer talking about metal.

NEO - defination - a prefix to a new form or revival to an old one.

Obviously in this case it means a little of both. It was a different form of metal, with melody lines, structure and improv based more on classical theory.

I've always understood these things but once again I check wikipedia and sure enough they back me up and show that there is no need for a few know it alls that want to make people appear to be morons because they hold the ultimate knowledge of all things. SO here we go... try to follow along.....

Neo-classical metal is a subgenre of the heavy metal music heavily influenced by classical music in its style of playing and composing[1]. It implies a very technical performance and the use of elements borrowed from classical music and/or by famous classical music composers. Neo-classical metal is a concept distinct from neoclassicism in music. Real neoclassical music refers to the movement in musical modernism in which composers drew inspiration from the Classical period, popular during the years in between the two World Wars.

Nobody meant to imply that metal was now classical music. However I have been in arguements because I honestly feel the higher tech of todays progressive metal bands, shredders and the like are putting stuff out that is equally as profound as any of the classics produced for their small 3 or 4 piece... whatever the hell they called them, sonatas or whatever. I mean I have heard single classic pieces composed for piano, violin and even guitar. Just because they were not multi part ochestra arrangements with instruments going in 6 different and harmonized directions didnt make them no longer classical or any less profound.

Therefore I'll always stand my ground that there are many musicians in metal or instrumental music giving us a modern form of OUR music, todays music that is equal to or surpassing that of what the "classics" did for small ensembles..... hell those guys never even thought of putting a drum kit together... so WE win......

Hope this helps..........

 

[Matt]

^I agree almost completely. I was going to type a similar response but lost motivation.

 

[challenge_everything]

yada yada yada..... let me help you and the other Mr. technically, technically, technically from 5 years ago.....

In metal, when someone is talking metal and says neo classical and leave off the word metal, it doenst mean that are no longer talking about metal.

NEO - defination - a prefix to a new form or revival to an old one.

Obviously in this case it means a little of both. It was a different form of metal, with melody lines, structure and improv based more on classical theory.

I've always understood these things but once again I check wikipedia and sure enough they back me up and show that there is no need for a few know it alls that want to make people appear to be morons because they hold the ultimate knowledge of all things. SO here we go... try to follow along.....



Nobody meant to imply that metal was now classical music. However I have been in arguements because I honestly feel the higher tech of todays progressive metal bands, shredders and the like are putting stuff out that is equally as profound as any of the classics produced for their small 3 or 4 piece... whatever the hell they called them, sonatas or whatever. I mean I have heard single classic pieces composed for piano, violin and even guitar. Just because they were not multi part ochestra arrangements with instruments going in 6 different and harmonized directions didnt make them no longer classical or any less profound.

Therefore I'll always stand my ground that there are many musicians in metal or instrumental music giving us a modern form of OUR music, todays music that is equal to or surpassing that of what the "classics" did for small ensembles..... hell those guys never even thought of putting a drum kit together... so WE win......

Hope this helps..........

This is flawed for so many reasons I don't know where to start. Essentially you're saying it's OK to co-opt a defined musical term and use to categorise a newer form of music which superficially shares some characteristics and almost none of the defining ones? Linear songwriting has little to nothing to do with classical music. As I understand it, this thread was about neoclassical music rather than neoclassical metal and even if it wasn't, I think bands like Crimson Massacre or Gorguts have more in common with classical music than SymX.

Edit: And the other thing you seem to be saying is because modern metal rivals the technical difficulty of classical music and creates profound works of art it somehow earns the right to be called 'neoclassical'. This just doesn't make sense in the slightest.

 

[razoredge]

Ah... would ya lookie this.....

read : neo classical metal..... neo classicism..... metal forum.... Yngwie, Symphony X, Stratovarius always connected to neo classical metal, nobody made wrong or misinformed statements here, maybe the one about sweeps was a little too... little, but I have no problem accepting what the guy was trying to say. If you or anyone doesnt like it, jump in your time machine and go back to somewhere around 1984 and bitch slap whomever it was that pinned the term neo classical metal to Yngwie, but stay off the backs of those who have long ago accepted it..... focus........ connect...... accept...... get over it..... have a nice day

 

[razoredge]

Edit: And the other thing you seem to be saying is because modern metal rivals the technical difficulty of classical music and creates profound works of art it somehow earns the right to be called 'neoclassical'. This just doesn't make sense in the slightest.

I said nothing of the sort.... try to focus. Neo classical metal is a sound, one that sticks out like a sore thumb.

My last two paragraphs were only comparing some modern progressive metal to an equivelent level of intellegence and credit as the classics. I said nothing about "neo-classical metal" anytime during those particular statements. I put some of the past 3 decades worth of fusion players/composer in that catagory as well. I'm also of the opinion that many jazz musicians from the past... I dont know how many decades make the classics look like kindergartners. *Please take note that I made it clear I was not calling prog, fusion, nor jazz "classical"..

I respect the classics but I dont hold them in the high untouchable esteem many other people do....... sorry

 

[challenge_everything]

This coming from the guy who dismissed punk and rap in various other threads as being genres produced by morons with attitude problems. Try learning something about a genre before pretending to be informed enough to comment on it.

By your argument, if enough uninformed people deem modern day Cradle of Filth to be black metal, it must be so, despite it having almost nothing in common with Darkthrone, Emperor et al.

 

[razoredge]

punk and rap is a totally different thing, sorry. They are legitmate genres, however one was based on anti musical talent and lost souls haveing a "personal identity crisis" and the other is hardly music at all, its a rhythmn with pissed off people reciting nursery rhyme level lyrics all while trying to hold their pants up and make kewl jestures with their arms and hands, and all at the same time no less... quite impressive if your into that kind of thing... which clearly I am not

dont know or care about the other "music" you mentioned other than they have shit vocals and worship things I care not to. so your on your own with that one.

neo classical metal means what it always has meant and is easily indentified and understood, argueing whos more or whos less is irrelevent if the influence is present and denying that its presence exists indicates deeper routed issues

that is unless you live to challenge everything if not take up your own advise and apply it to what neo classical metal has meant since it was peged. Just so you know it wasnt me that done did it, myself I would have just said it was just rock n roll....

 

[Matt]

I think bands like Crimson Massacre or Gorguts have more in common with classical music than SymX.

lolol

 

[challenge_everything]

punk and rap is a totally different thing, sorry. They are legitmate genres, however one was based on anti musical talent and lost souls haveing a "personal identity crisis" and the other is hardly music at all, its a rhythmn with pissed off people reciting nursery rhyme level lyrics all while trying to hold their pants up and make kewl jestures with their arms and hands, and all at the same time no less... quite impressive if your into that kind of thing... which clearly I am not

dont know or care about the other "music" you mentioned other than they have shit vocals and worship things I care not to. so your on your own with that one.

Well you couldn't have made it more obvious - you're ignorant and closeminded.

 

[razoredge]

yada yada yada

he who cant accept the neo classical was applied to a form of heavy metal

im gonna go get a spiked mohegan and dye it orange, then get me a pair of them baggie pants and start speaking in rhymes so as I wont be ignorant anymo, you know what I mean you little ho, cause I cant take it no mo, so I be hittin the do, gonna get up off the flo and be dyin me hair o, like to be talkin at yo, but I gotta go

 

[BloodSword]

Yngwie is the best in neoclassical Hard Rock/Metal. All others are clones.
This doesn't mean that the others are bad !!!!
Another great guitarplayer for neo-classical Rock is Uli Jon Roth


Uli Jon Roth

Yngwie Malmsteen

So, Jason Becker was a clone to Malmsteen?

 

[razoredge]

I think what the guy meant when he made that post 4 years ago was Yngwie brought it to prominence first. Which in as far as recording careers he preceeded by 3 if not 4 years.

 

[Matt]

By your argument, if enough uninformed people deem modern day Cradle of Filth to be black metal, it must be so, despite it having almost nothing in common with Darkthrone, Emperor et al.

So bands have to have something in common with Darkthrone or Emperor to be black metal?

 

[Satanstoenail]

im gonna go get a spiked mohegan and dye it orange, then get me a pair of them baggie pants and start speaking in rhymes so as I wont be ignorant anymo, you know what I mean you little ho, cause I cant take it no mo, so I be hittin the do, gonna get up off the flo and be dyin me hair o, like to be talkin at yo, but I gotta go

It's quite obvious you know nothing of good hip-hop or punk.

 

[challenge_everything]

So bands have to have something in common with Darkthrone or Emperor to be black metal?

No, perhaps I expressed it badly, I was trying to say that new CoF has nothing more than a superficial connection to black metal and simply because ill-informed teens think it's black metal does not make it so. Which is of course analogous to razoredge's argument.

 

[CAIRATH]

punk and rap is a totally different thing, sorry. They are legitmate genres, however one was based on anti musical talent and lost souls haveing a "personal identity crisis" and the other is hardly music at all, its a rhythmn with pissed off people reciting nursery rhyme level lyrics all while trying to hold their pants up and make kewl jestures with their arms and hands, and all at the same time no less... quite impressive if your into that kind of thing... which clearly I am not

dont know or care about the other "music" you mentioned other than they have shit vocals and worship things I care not to. so your on your own with that one.

im gonna go get a spiked mohegan and dye it orange, then get me a pair of them baggie pants and start speaking in rhymes so as I wont be ignorant anymo, you know what I mean you little ho, cause I cant take it no mo, so I be hittin the do, gonna get up off the flo and be dyin me hair o, like to be talkin at yo, but I gotta go

Nice display of ignorance (and lack of wit).