neo-classical

[razoredge]

yea, yea, yea, call me all the names you want. When your done please explain to me why I should delve deeper into genres of music I find uninspiring, just to find the alleged handful of talented musicians? I have never liked rap nor punk since their incarnations, so was I supposed to inflict some form of self mutilation to my ears and brain waves to locate some elusive talent? To say Im ignorant for not doing this is less valid than my feelings that these are ignorant forms of music.

In the case of "black metal and death metal" why should I suffer through a pile of songs or bands to find a decent vocalist and why I should pursue a form of music thats fixated on topics I have no interest in... I could say much worse. I dont listen to Christian music WTF would I want to listen to that crap ? GO AHEAD EXPLAIN..... EASIER TO CALL ME IGNORANT... RIGHT ! Why ? Because I do a few quick satirical pokes at the stereotype of the genres and you cant take it? Im no less ignorant than those who offer up one sentence in the form of an insult but not a word to back up where they find the inspiration or talent in these genres.

@ satanstoenail - I listened to some of your "hop" type stuff last night on the chill out thread. Its just not for me and never was, from within five seconds of the processed drum beats through to when the whole thing kicked in... not for me. Ill take old bebop, swing, soul or R&B anyday, it just doesnt inpsire me, but I have no problem that you can appreaciate it.

@ challenge everything - you have offered up no explaination of your own. You only backed up one dude that wanted to prove a higher realm of intellegence by saying everyone else was so misinformed... that and that I was ignorant. Well as soon as you can validate that neo classical metal has never existed and that those bands and artists mentioned have not applied neo classical elements into their metal, you will no doubt prove my ignorance and disprove yours.

So go ahead take a stab, Ill give time to reading and try to focus on what is said, but Im willing to bet no one does.

 

[challenge_everything]

I see classical music only as a superficial or minor influence. 'Neo classical' guitarists have these kind of bombastic riffs which are somewhat reminiscent of the melodies and themes of some well-known symphonies, particularly the likes of Mozart and Beethoven (see Beethoven's fifth for example). The other main connection is that the fast shredding guitar style is often seen to have been derived from Paganini who was kind of like the original shredder (except on violin).

But in terms of the compositions as a whole, there's little similarity. 'Neo classical' metal is still essentially linear in structure, based around one lead instrument (the guitar), which is often still rooted in power chords and modal progressions. I don't regard it as having the complexity and polyphony of classical music (whereby there is a multipicity of different voices being harmonised together to create something greater than the individual parts), there's little use of counterpoint, the themes are not varied, developed and built on, with smaller phrases being linked up as part of larger movements.

BTW no-one is saying you have to like or listen to genres you don't appreciate (I don't like rap myself) but the point is not to perpetuate the most facile stereotypes of these genres, which anyone who is reasonably well versed in them can easily prove totally erroneous.

 

[challenge_everything]

lolol

Are you aware than Luc Lemay does actually compose classical pieces? I see I strong influence of the likes of Penderecki, Ligeti and Schoenberg in his metal albums.

 

[razoredge]

Sounds like you may be a bit of a classical snob ?

Which is fine, I proudly wave my prog and fusion snob flag. Which exemplifies why I can't tolerate some of the genres recently mentioned. I wont argue them either, they are what they are regardless of the handful of jewels someone may believe they found.

To me, your still totally missing the point about neo classical metal. I already covered the polyphonic part. Metal bands are small bands, and once again not all classical music was written for full symphonys and Ive heard many lineal movements in classical pieces anyhow. Were also talkin metal, and high distortion, high speed parts are nearly impossible to make sound like anything but a puddle of mud if you get the bass and two guitars or guitar, bass and keys going in totally different directions, if you think the likes of Malmsteen or Romeo lack the knowledge to do so your are grievously under estimating them. The part about power chords is the same issue under extreme saturation, I know Ive tried, you start ringing out to many harmonized tones from one instrument thats under full saturation and you have harmonic issues as well as the puddle of mud, this is also one reason for using palm mutes.

Now its not only metal, its modern music and no one, not even the musicians have said they are trying to be "classical orchestras". However if you listen to much 90's Savatage(not considered neo___) or Symphony X(considered prog metal/neo classical prog metal, they dont over indulge in the classical stuff but fuse many elements, still the use of classical theory is present frequently)... if you listen to this stuff, you will find many parts here and there where they calm down enough that it allows all three or more players to go in different direction and do counter point stuff as well. Many of these bands and players do develope and build, phrases and link them in here and there,combined with the main themes. But when they go metal, its metal, thats why metal is at the end of the prefix. Now Yngwie has done plenty of classical compositions not unlike classical compositions that were done for guitar, after all Paganini did many concerts all by himself, is he therefore not considered classical because he didnt have a polyphonic orchestra behind him ? Yngwie also did at least one entire orchestral piece.

Becker and Friedman were legendary for their ability to do on the spot harmonized improvisation and both studied classical music and applied it.

Another band that did some honest to goodness classical composition forms for 4 piece was Dixie Dregs. Morse and Sloan put some nice stuff in this form together and it wasnt metal, it was clean instruments. Someone more knowledgeable in classical terminology and of composers could make the comparisions as to the type of piece they were.

You also use statements like "these kind of bombastic riffs which are somewhat reminiscent of the melodies and themes of some well-known symphonies, particularly the likes of Mozart and Beethoven (see Beethoven's fifth for example)" and that too is missing the point. While some have played actual pieces here and there, what they do on there own is apply the musical theory, "not try to play something that is reminiscent". If you apply jazz theory to music its going to come out sounding like jazz, it you apply classical theory... guess what?

So the question is, here you had this totally different style of metal guitar playing that drew from classical theory... now what was everyone supposed to do.... ignore it... say ah thats just metal so as not to offend the self appointed integrity of the classical community ? I think not, you give the people credit for what they have been able to do combining classic theory with heavy metal and you call it neo classical metal.

Nuff said, one either gets it, hears it or they dont

 

[Matt]

So what metal bands would be considered neoclassical, CE?

 

[challenge_everything]

@razoredge: You seem to have gotten the impression that I'm bashing shred guitarists. I'm not: I enjoy my Vai and Satch and Romeo as much as the next bloke and certainly recognise their skill. I just don't like the classical music comparison.

 

[challenge_everything]

So what metal bands would be considered neoclassical, CE?

I would be hesitant to use that label on albums I've heard because as I've said it's overused. I see the strongest structural and compositional influence in the likes of Gorguts, like I said, At the Gates' The Red in the Sky is Ours, The Chasm, Burzum (albeit in a simplistic minimalist sense). Moving away from metal but Elend could certainly be considered neo-classical.

 

[razoredge]

yea.... it is kind of insulting to todays musical genious to compare them to the archaic classical composers who clearly had no groove what so ever........

[fades off into the sunset with Satch Boogie blaring through the speakers]

 

[Satanstoenail]

yea, yea, yea, call me all the names you want. When your done please explain to me why I should delve deeper into genres of music I find uninspiring, just to find the alleged handful of talented musicians? I have never liked rap nor punk since their incarnations, so was I supposed to inflict some form of self mutilation to my ears and brain waves to locate some elusive talent? To say Im ignorant for not doing this is less valid than my feelings that these are ignorant forms of music.

@ satanstoenail - I listened to some of your "hop" type stuff last night on the chill out thread. Its just not for me and never was, from within five seconds of the processed drum beats through to when the whole thing kicked in... not for me. Ill take old bebop, swing, soul or R&B anyday, it just doesnt inpsire me, but I have no problem that you can appreaciate it.

The reason you were called ignorant is because of this paragraph right here:

punk and rap is a totally different thing, sorry. They are legitmate genres, however one was based on anti musical talent and lost souls haveing a "personal identity crisis" and the other is hardly music at all, its a rhythmn with pissed off people reciting nursery rhyme level lyrics all while trying to hold their pants up and make kewl jestures with their arms and hands, and all at the same time no less... quite impressive if your into that kind of thing... which clearly I am not

It just shows a basic misunderstanding of what both the genres are about. Fair enough if you don't like either genre and know little about them, but pretending you know what you're talking about when you describe them makes you look silly. And calling everyone involved with either genre 'talentless' makes you look silly. It's exactly the same as people who don't like metal saying it's nothing but noise played by angst-ridden idiots.

 

[razoredge]

So Im to believe punk was not a totally anti establishment everything including the idea of musicians striving for musical and sound integrity & quality ? That the biggest unlying idea behind the music was not to be simplictic to an extreme, crude and sound just plain nasty, and almost entirely ungrounded ? Am I to believe that the people with the spiked dyed hair and other cosmetic stuff that came with the following never said they did it to define their personal identity and that many did not even go as far as to say they hated the appearence they were born with ?

Am I to believe that a stage filled only with people, microphones and a turntable for making scratchy sounds over top of preprogramed drum and bass tracks is a show of creative musical talent. Or that it was my imagination that spoken lyrics rhymed nearly ever four words regardless of the occasional clever phrase?

I'm not sure where the ignorance really lies here, if its me or whats at the foundation of these genres or those that try to deny it because somewhere along the lines it became fused with other more musical attributes, at which time I have no doubt the founders and origional following cried "sell out" and "thats not really ____"

I dont mind being called ignorant, it was more the idea that that was all that was offered.

 

[Satanstoenail]

So Im to believe punk was not a totally anti establishment everything including the idea of musicians striving for musical and sound integrity & quality ? That the biggest unlying idea behind the music was not to be simplictic to an extreme, crude and sound just plain nasty, and almost entirely ungrounded ? Am I to believe that the people with the spiked dyed hair and other cosmetic stuff that came with the following never said they did it to define their personal identity and that many did not even go as far as to say they hated the appearence they were born with ?

Am I to believe that a stage filled only with people, microphones and a turntable for making scratchy sounds over top of preprogramed drum and bass tracks is a show of creative musical talent. Or that it was my imagination that spoken lyrics rhymed nearly ever four words regardless of the occasional clever phrase?

Look, I'll say it again, since you don't seem to have taken in what I said previously: Your opinions on these genres are shallow generalisations. If you don't like them, fine, but don't pretend to know what either of them are about when you quite obviously haven't educated yourself or given them a chance beyond hearing a few songs and deciding they suck.

I'm not sure where the ignorance really lies here, if its me or whats at the foundation of these genres or those that try to deny it because somewhere along the lines it became fused with other more musical attributes, at which time I have no doubt the founders and origional following cried "sell out" and "thats not really ____"

I dont mind being called ignorant, it was more the idea that that was all that was offered.

The ignorance here lies with your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge creative talent within either genre. To blanket ban whole genres because of uninformed and generalised opinion is ridiculous. One of the best things I've learned over the years is that good, creatively inspired music can come from ANY genre. To deny this has a whole lot more to do with closed-mindedness than it has to do with personal preference.

Some highly informative and educational docos to check out (whether you like the genres or not) are:

Punk: Attitude
The Ramones: End of the Century

Freestyle: The Art of Rhyme
Scratch

 

[razoredge]

Actually Im not uneducated nor uninformed in these affairs. I did a little hanging around during the punk period, that was actually part of my generation,by that I mean exact age group, just out of high school in the mid 70's, 76 to be exact. One of the other groups of people went all disco, I did a bit of hanging around there as well. I'll just sum up my reaction to either of the whole thing, music and culture as "you've got to be kidding me". So being how the Ramones were all the rage at the time Im sure I heard plenty of their music, if it was memorable... well it didnt strike a vein with me.

This was also around the time when rock bands like Kiss and Foreigner were garnering big success... well guess what, I didnt jump on that manure spreader either.

I've also spent plenty of time watching a wide varity of black movies from mild to radical and they are laden with rap sound tracks, rap artists and other cultural issues. So theres countless hours of exposure to all that. I will confess it was not nearly as painfull as watching the movie about punk, what ever the fuck it was.

Spent my share of time around country western music too and Im not willing to delve deeply into any of that either.

So thanks, but no thanks, Im comfortable

 

[SentinelSlain]

I think PERHAPS people are slightly too ready to criticise anyone who says a certain genre is all bad. What if those genres actually don't have enough in them for good music to be made in them.

If I make a song with the sound of snapping pencils me talking about trigonometry then it would suck and how ever many albums of it I put out it would get no better.

 

[razoredge]

Thats a good way of putting it to the extreme example. Most of the styles of music I listen to have been the least popular over the years and have little cultural statement value, as in - there is little fashion or other cult identifiable traits.

edit : unless you play the music backwards.... then look out ! ........ lol

 

[Satanstoenail]

Actually Im not uneducated nor uninformed in these affairs.

So why do you spout such uneducated and uninformed opinions about them?

I did a little hanging around during the punk period, that was actually part of my generation,by that I mean exact age group, just out of high school in the mid 70's, 76 to be exact. One of the other groups of people went all disco, I did a bit of hanging around there as well. I'll just sum up my reaction to either of the whole thing, music and culture as "you've got to be kidding me". So being how the Ramones were all the rage at the time Im sure I heard plenty of their music, if it was memorable... well it didnt strike a vein with me.

This was also around the time when rock bands like Kiss and Foreigner were garnering big success... well guess what, I didnt jump on that manure spreader either.

I've also spent plenty of time watching a wide varity of black movies from mild to radical and they are laden with rap sound tracks, rap artists and other cultural issues. So theres countless hours of exposure to all that. I will confess it was not nearly as painfull as watching the movie about punk, what ever the fuck it was.

Spent my share of time around country western music too and Im not willing to delve deeply into any of that either.

"A bit of hanging around" and "watching a wide variety of movies" hardly equates to educating yourself. I'm no spring chicken either, but I'm not one to use my age as a level of how informed I am about the world around me. I fucking hated punk until about 2 or 3 years ago myself, I had exactly the same opinion as you about it. I hated all electronic music the whole time I was a full-blown metalhead. I'm extremely thankful that this has changed.

So thanks, but no thanks, Im comfortable

Fair enough, but you're missing out on a whole lot of great music.

 

[BloodSword]

I'm a firm believer that as we age our musical tastes begin to shift. To whatever, for whatever reason. I've always had problems with those who "lump", what they regard as "shitty" music, simply because they don't like this or that. People who do this, are close-minded about more than just music. It's just their nature. It's a "flawed" way to approach music listening, and quite frankly life. I'm 54 yrs old, and I've learned overe the yrs, to remain open. I can learn from anyone, younger people, as well as older. Peace.

 

[razoredge]

Im not using my age, thats a horrible interpretation of what I said. I was there, I observed, I took it all in and I rejected it. The point of that statement was I've had plenty of exposure to this stuff to make my decision. Its not my thing by any streach and I also find it uninspiring and frankly quite lame. As per many previous posts, I also dont believe anyone could possible prove a point against what has always been at the root of these genres, its just well know documented facts. I'm aware all music spreds out, fuses and draws other influences as well as what wrong with stereotyping but I really do have fun busting on some of these cultural, trendy, fadish kind of things. I am somewhat satirical when I do so and am well aware of it. Of what music I spend money on, the blues and old... and I mean OLD rock n roll are the only simplistic, minimalist music I have ever enjoyed. Most everything else has had at least some elements of progressive to the extremes of progressive, thats where my taste lies and I am comfortable because at least through my ears, I can find everything that musically satisfies me... from radical to mellow in those types of musicians.

Also, if you look back at the progression of this thread you will see I never got into the punk and rap thing until they were brought up as a way to verify.... "MY IGNORANCE".... ?.... lol. I wasnt the one that brought it up, only persued it as I was thrown in the dumpster and forced to dig my way out.... which has been quite fun. {grins a wolfish grin and leaves the herd of sheep with belly full}

 

[razoredge]

I only agree partially Bloodsword. I can enjoy stuff today I didnt when I was younger but when looking back at my tastes 30+ years ago I can see how that has led me to what I enjoy today. Also, Im not extremely closed minded and accept a resonable amount of things and focus on understanding how they came to be. But I do draw firm lines in what I will and will not accept, and am quite comfortable in that as well. Hey, just like everyone else.... "Its not me thats all fucked up.... its the rest of the world"

 

[BloodSword]

I can understand. That which being, enjoying stuff today that you didn't when you were younger, and looking back 30 yrs and hearing, what has led you up to what you may appreciate now. My own personal experience(which is all I know) has been that overtime my tastes have shifted. An example would be, throughout the 90's all I listened to were "blues or blues-rock. As with all things, for me, too much of the same thing becomes stale and boring, which is what happened. Opeth were the band that primarily led me to metal back in 95 with "Morningrise" I was so deep into blues, I never really "listened" to Opeth until later. And when I did, I was fascinated with the music. Porcupine Tree back in 93 was also a big listening influence. That was where the shift began, roughly in the late 90's. Now, I appreciate metal, jazz, blues, prog/rock and post-punk. I owe that to Opeth opening a "new door" in my sometimes fuckered up mind. I need to trim the "fat" off this post. HAHA!!!

 

[razoredge]

Well yes, I have had my stages. Initially the first... early 70's, most all of the hardrock bands which included a taste for the blues, then I was turned on to fusion the summer of '75 at Berkeley, after than the only rock I could enjoy was more progressive. Then by the early 80's the party was over and I was fully indulged with work and had a pickup with nothing but a radio and was dead on my feet 16 hrs a day. By the mid 80's I was playing with some of my old friends again and we were learning party music so my listening was more blues rock and pop metal, shortly after that I started to discover the more progressive or intence heavy metal bands my new younger bunch of musical friends were into and we fully educated each other on the two decades. Me with my heavy blues, hardrock, prog and fusion, them with their heavy metal and progressive metal. Havent really looked around since.

Satanstoenail - I did appreaciate and recognize your effort but some efforts will always be in vein when it comes to my musical tastes and where I will and will not roam.

Lastly... Neo classical metal is a justified and necessary term to have put on a certain playing style and sound of metal..... lol!
[his royal edgyness... signing off]