New album Foregone out February 2023

[DE4life]

Wtf a fucking wasp just stung me. Put down your Slave voodo dolls, it's not funny!

As for the tier lists, of course it's subjective, but at least it's fun. If we dismissed everything like Spock would, then we would miss out on many of the joys life can offer. Wasps, in fact, do not belong to such joys.

But yes, Slave is one of the few people I can be very blunt with as I know he can take it and dish it back out. It's tiring to have to spend majority of my day sanitising my thoughts out of fear of offending somebody, even if they've done or said something extremely stupid.

 

[DE4life]

I’m not sure that any of us like Bottled that much.

Oh, my boy. If there's one thing I've learned from this long, weary life, it's that there is ALWAYS someone who will act the contrarian. Even in the place of something being utterly and objectively appalling and pathetic, there will always be one who says "actually I like it, you guys just aren't getting it". Every time. In fact it's so predictable that it's become boring. There's gonna be someone out there saying "Oh my god guys, you know, Battles is SO underrated!! People just don't get it!"

Slave will no doubt steam in and say "people can have other opinions ya know, hive mind, hurr durr", but it's nothing to do with that. Some things are just shit, and it's OK to say "I know it's shit, but I like it", rather than trying to convince everyone something is actually amazing when it clearly and obviously is not.

In fairness to him, my list shares a surprising amount of similarity to his in that regard— Not the Colony in D tier part, that one’s an opinion I’ll never have.
Edit: this is supposed to quote de4life, but the formatting has decided to fucking melt itself once again. Goddamn it.

I would say your tier list makes a lot more logical sense. Colony and Clayman are within a tier of each other. 1994 - 2000 albums all within the first three tiers. STYE and Reroute, the controversial post-2000 albums, in the middle. SC, Foregone, ASOP and Battles, generally considered the worst IF albums by many, at the bottom.

 

[Xpyro125]

I genuinely think you're the only person I've come across who has such a massive issue with TJR's production. Like, enough to knock it down multiple tiers. I never see this opinion anywhere else. Personally I think TJR's production is spot on for the folky, melancholic, dystopian vibe the album is going for. I don't really understand the Whoracle comment either. It's generally accepted that Whoracle's production isn't the best - even Jesper has admitted that. It's kind of thick rather than crisp, although again it doesn't bother me enough to knock it down any tiers. I'm fine with both albums how they are.

I’m not super huge on the drum sound in TJR, and it’s a bit improved in Whoracle, though both have it a bit too quiet for me imo. Bass is tough to hear in TJR, it’s just barely fine in Whoracle. I’m not huge on the guitar tone of TJR normally, but I think it actually works for the album. None of that hampers my enjoyment of either album much.

Lunar Strain I can understand knocking down a tier or two for production. TJR though? I don't really see the logic, considering it's an issue very few people have ever expressed about the album, whereas many people note that Lunar's production is poor. I'm also curious as to how Reroute, which I love but has one of the worst IF mixes ever, gets into S tier with production seemingly completely ignored, whilst TJR gets obliterated for it.

Reroute is completely crippled with compression, arguably even worse than CC is (Though that works for CC), but I do like its mix. RTR-CC is the golden age for hearing the bass loud and clear, and the thick tone with the five string is beautiful for that. I’d say the audio fidelity is heavily compromised by the production and mixing, but the fact that everything’s clear is great.

I agree that there's a slight improvement on Whoracle compared to TJR, but no way has he found his niche at that point. He still has zero technique, as any live shows from around the time Whoracle was recorded will attest to. It was only really in 1998 and starting in studio on Colony that he found the voice people would truly recognise him for (unique higher pitched scream/rasp). Whoracle he's still trying to be "Swedish death metal vocalist", on Colony he's really becoming Anders as most would know him going forward.

I don’t think technique necessarily means good. Sustainable? Yes, and that is good, but I’ll take even waning, cracking Clayman Anders over Foregone Anders any day. Anders’ vocals may be objectively bad, even in the classic era, but there was so much fucking emotion carried in his vocals that I love. It’s something you just don’t get anymore, so I’ll always be happier with bad Anders than good Anders.

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production, but okay. From memory I think you're more into Static-X (RIP dude with crazy hair), NIN, etc than metal, so maybe that's understandable.

In terms of every instrument having breathing room... in some ways, yeah, but Clayman is ultimately a guitar-led and driven album in every respect. Bass plays no real part in dictating the pace or direction of the music, and the vocals have no influence musically at all. It's just layered over the top, essentially. Drumming on Clayman is cool, though, I will give ye that - and Daniel sounds great on that record. He did Leinad proud.

I’m with the majority on this one, Clayman has some of the best production I’ve heard. It’s a bit compressed, but the fact that everything’s clear without it hurting the audio fidelity much is nothing short of masterful.

Oh, my boy. If there's one thing I've learned from this long, weary life, it's that there is ALWAYS someone who will act the contrarian. Even in the place of something being utterly and objectively appalling and pathetic, there will always be one who says "actually I like it, you guys just aren't getting it". Every time. In fact it's so predictable that it's become boring. There's gonna be someone out there saying "Oh my god guys, you know, Battles is SO underrated!! People just don't get it!"

I mean, yeah, there are a lot of horribly deluded people who love Battles. Going into comments sections on Battles videos, its singles, and even on a fucking subreddit or some shit will have those people. Even on a STYE video, I’ve never seen anyone defend Bottled. It’s just on videos specifically of Bottled, which of course, the only other things you can say are “I love this album” and “I love this band”. It’s just what’s gonna happen there, but absolutely nowhere else.

And I hope I’m never wrong on this.

I would say your tier list makes a lot more logical sense. Colony and Clayman are within a tier of each other. 1994 - 2000 albums all within the first three tiers. STYE and Reroute, the controversial post-2000 albums, in the middle. SC, Foregone, ASOP and Battles, generally considered the worst IF albums by many, at the bottom.

I guess that’s fair enough, I didn’t really think about it that way since I didn’t give any explanations for my reasoning.

 

[eochaid]

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production

That's one of the best mixes that I've ever listened to in metal. The first time that I've listened to it it blew up my mind.

 

[Jester Slave]

I genuinely think you're the only person I've come across who has such a massive issue with TJR's production. Like, enough to knock it down multiple tiers. I never see this opinion anywhere else. Personally I think TJR's production is spot on for the folky, melancholic, dystopian vibe the album is going for. I don't really understand the Whoracle comment either. It's generally accepted that Whoracle's production isn't the best - even Jesper has admitted that. It's kind of thick rather than crisp, although again it doesn't bother me enough to knock it down any tiers. I'm fine with both albums how they are.

Lunar Strain I can understand knocking down a tier or two for production. TJR though? I don't really see the logic, considering it's an issue very few people have ever expressed about the album, whereas many people note that Lunar's production is poor. I'm also curious as to how Reroute, which I love but has one of the worst IF mixes ever, gets into S tier with production seemingly completely ignored, whilst TJR gets obliterated for it.



I agree that there's a slight improvement on Whoracle compared to TJR, but no way has he found his niche at that point. He still has zero technique, as any live shows from around the time Whoracle was recorded will attest to. It was only really in 1998 and starting in studio on Colony that he found the voice people would truly recognise him for (unique higher pitched scream/rasp). Whoracle he's still trying to be "Swedish death metal vocalist", on Colony he's really becoming Anders as most would know him going forward.



Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production, but okay. From memory I think you're more into Static-X (RIP dude with crazy hair), NIN, etc than metal, so maybe that's understandable.

In terms of every instrument having breathing room... in some ways, yeah, but Clayman is ultimately a guitar-led and driven album in every respect. Bass plays no real part in dictating the pace or direction of the music, and the vocals have no influence musically at all. It's just layered over the top, essentially. Drumming on Clayman is cool, though, I will give ye that - and Daniel sounds great on that record. He did Leinad proud.



It would be pretty decent for us, maybe, who have heavily criticised it. Not for you, who has staunchly defended it. I seriously can't believe you went from this in September:


To now putting Foregone AHEAD of SC in your rankings, lmao. Album with no imagination or complete songs is now B tier. Bro, what is going on? How did an album full of "that chorus" or "that riff" become better than basically half of the band's entire discography to you? Do you think IF have just had quite a shitty career generally, or have you discovered some hidden wisdom which means Foregone has become an epic between September and now?

Well, a year passed and you make it sound a bigger deal than it is. SC is the first one in tier C, Foregone is the last one in tier B, so as of right now, they kinda switched places compared to a year ago. I don't even disagree with that comment of mine: Cynosure and In the Dark are prime chorus-baiters, and Dialogue and Foregone pt 2. feel unfinished. The singles are pretty good however, and I also dig the intro, pure light and end the transmission. If I was feeling moody, I may want to switch them around again, but right now I'm sticking with this. If my SC pick is still ~2 tiers higher than everyone else's, then it should still give me fanboy points.

As for TJR, it just sounds old. I can't really explain it well. Listen to a track from TJR then one from The Halo Effect's debut record. You don't have any questions about which of these tracks are modern ones. I don't quite get that feeling with Whoracle. No, it does not sound like a record made in the 2020s, but TJR reminds me of the shitty days of having to listen cassette quality songs. The guitars in particular sound like they've been recorded during queen Victoria's reign. Jokes aside, if you told me that Whoracle was recorded 10 years after TJR I would believe it in a heartbeat.

Clayman sounds too cushiony for me. Kind of the opposite of Colony, which is a penetrating sonic assault on my ears, that I can just absolutely not stand. The guitar is penetrating and it feels like everything is almost mixed to the same loudness. Yes, CC is also very aggressive but it doesn't really have grand compositions like on Colony or Clayman, so it doesn't feel like 8 different things being mushed together. CC is like "check out this dope-ass riff, anyway, he's Anders screaming his lungs out to the melody, bye".

 

[DE4life]

I’m not super huge on the drum sound in TJR, and it’s a bit improved in Whoracle, though both have it a bit too quiet for me imo. Bass is tough to hear in TJR, it’s just barely fine in Whoracle. I’m not huge on the guitar tone of TJR normally, but I think it actually works for the album. None of that hampers my enjoyment of either album much.

Drums are certainly the weakest part of TJR, although the lack of focus on the drum patterns and sound does allow full focus to essentially go to the guitars, which are the stars of the show. Lead guitar on TJR in particular is just mesmerising at times.

Reroute is completely crippled with compression, arguably even worse than CC is (Though that works for CC), but I do like its mix. RTR-CC is the golden age for hearing the bass loud and clear, and the thick tone with the five string is beautiful for that. I’d say the audio fidelity is heavily compromised by the production and mixing, but the fact that everything’s clear is great.

I didn't have a problem with Reroute's mix until I heard clearer versions of the songs on YouTube from people covering the tracks - particularly Schehf. Made me realise how incredibly neutered the entire album is. Robbed of the power it should have had. Despite that I still put it in S tier just because I genuinely enjoy every single song on the album, but man, it could have been even better. I wish they'd released a remastered Reroute in the same way DT released remastered Damage Done in 2010. Remastered version of DD was awesome, made an amazing album even better. I'm sad Reroute is unlikely to ever get that treatment. Instead the band "remastered" Clayman, an album that didn't need it, because $$$. That debacle was enough to prove everybody wrong who stuck up for their supposed integrity as artists.

I don’t think technique necessarily means good. Sustainable? Yes, and that is good, but I’ll take even waning, cracking Clayman Anders over Foregone Anders any day. Anders’ vocals may be objectively bad, even in the classic era, but there was so much fucking emotion carried in his vocals that I love. It’s something you just don’t get anymore, so I’ll always be happier with bad Anders than good Anders.

Technique absolutely does not mean good. Stanne's vocals were far more intense and interesting before he was forced to go with a technique and stick to it. Definitely the same for Anders, but Whoracle is not the album to talk about him finding his niche. I only brought up technique because he had none on the first few albums. He was just a wailing banshee. I mean, listen to this live version of Behind Space released around the same time as Whoracle:



Just painful to listen to. This was basically Anders on Whoracle, it was just hidden a lot better in studio.

Compare to the time Colony was released:



Night and day. 1996/1997 version is zero technique, 1999 version he has technique, albeit not one he could sustain long-term. It's still controlled, though, rather than the uncontrolled mess that was his vocal performances pre-1998.

I’m with the majority on this one, Clayman has some of the best production I’ve heard. It’s a bit compressed, but the fact that everything’s clear without it hurting the audio fidelity much is nothing short of masterful.

That's one of the best mixes that I've ever listened to in metal. The first time that I've listened to it it blew up my mind.

Yep. I'll admit when i was first listening to IF I wasn't really thinking about production. In Flames' albums were some of the first metal albums I listened to, they were essentially my gateway into that kind of music. I had no understanding of what good or bad production was. I just knew that if I liked a song, I liked a song. Objectively though, the Clayman mix is widely regarded as one of the best in the genre, and it isn't hard to see why.

I mean, yeah, there are a lot of horribly deluded people who love Battles. Going into comments sections on Battles videos, its singles, and even on a fucking subreddit or some shit will have those people. Even on a STYE video, I’ve never seen anyone defend Bottled. It’s just on videos specifically of Bottled, which of course, the only other things you can say are “I love this album” and “I love this band”. It’s just what’s gonna happen there, but absolutely nowhere else.

And I hope I’m never wrong on this.

"Most underrated IF song" from reddit:



As I said man, there is ALWAYS someone. Also, from the 'unpopular opinions about In Flames' thread:



Always someone.

 

[DE4life]

Well, a year passed and you make it sound a bigger deal than it is. SC is the first one in tier C, Foregone is the last one in tier B, so as of right now, they kinda switched places compared to a year ago. I don't even disagree with that comment of mine: Cynosure and In the Dark are prime chorus-baiters, and Dialogue and Foregone pt 2. feel unfinished. The singles are pretty good however, and I also dig the intro, pure light and end the transmission. If I was feeling moody, I may want to switch them around again, but right now I'm sticking with this. If my SC pick is still ~2 tiers higher than everyone else's, then it should still give me fanboy points.

I mean, it's less than a year and still quite a short time to turnaround your opinion to such a degree. But considering how half-hearted your praise above is, it still makes me think you must believe In Flames have had a pretty poor career in terms of overall artistic output if Foregone is in the top half of ALL the albums they've released. An album that's basically half-retreads of their own music or other Swedish bands from the 90s (cough ATG) and half the usual Benson-inspired bullshit with horrifically autotuned vocals.

I do think IF might have found the formula though. Release a few singles that sound vaguely like stuff people think you sounded like in the past, even if you really didn't, and nobody will give a shit about the rest of the album. Too hypnotised by the "IFWT IF ARE BACK BOIZ BACK TO DA ROOTS" bandwagon that comes around every time a new album comes out. It's always a lie, but this time it was even worse in a way as they actually did bring some stuff from the past back - just not their past.

As for TJR, it just sounds old. I can't really explain it well. Listen to a track from TJR then one from The Halo Effect's debut record. You don't have any questions about which of these tracks are modern ones. I don't quite get that feeling with Whoracle. No, it does not sound like a record made in the 2020s, but TJR reminds me of the shitty days of having to listen cassette quality songs. The guitars in particular sound like they've been recorded during queen Victoria's reign. Jokes aside, if you told me that Whoracle was recorded 10 years after TJR I would believe it in a heartbeat.

I don't think what you're describing is necessarily 'old' sound, but rather a new sound that was evolving and hadn't found a stable platform yet. You have to remember that at the time MDM was in its embryonic stages, A lot of albums from around that time have the same kind of production - it's not that the sound is old (you can find albums with similar sounding production to today in the 90s if you wish), it's just that bands weren't sure how to produce these albums yet. They were also typically pretty low budget so it's not like they were Metallica and had months and millions of dollars to work with. Even THE budget would surely be magnitudes higher than IF in 1995, and the experience of everyone in the studio for THE is obviously x100000 compared to 1995 IF and Nordstrom. They were doing the best they could and learning as they went along. Remember that Anders literally rerecorded all of his vocals on TJR right at the end of the studio time, because he suddenly found a technique he was more comfortable with. Considering how he sounded live I'm not sure it was worth rerecording, really, but whatever. Maybe he used a different "technique" live, or just none at all.

Anyway, the other thing to remember is that Nordstrom himself didn't know what he was doing either. He admitted as much in the interview with him that was posted here fairly recently. He was working crazy hours but totally winging it. He suddenly had MDM and DM bands from all over the world wanting to record with him. Probably by the time Whoracle came around he'd basically gained 10 years of experience in a year, just because of the amount of bands coming through and the work he was putting in. Now Whoracle's production suits its sound in some ways, but would it have suited TJR? In my view, no. TJR's sound perfectly encapsulates that unique point in time when MDM was evolving, and you hear similar experimentation in production across all albums of the time. That's what makes me love that period so much - the lack of uniformity. The experimentation and freedom to just try and do something cool. You feel that in a way that the likes of Foregone can never achieve, and it's the total opposite of albums like the shitheap that is Battles.

 

[Xpyro125]

Drums are certainly the weakest part of TJR, although the lack of focus on the drum patterns and sound does allow full focus to essentially go to the guitars, which are the stars of the show. Lead guitar on TJR in particular is just mesmerising at times.

I didn't have a problem with Reroute's mix until I heard clearer versions of the songs on YouTube from people covering the tracks - particularly Schehf. Made me realise how incredibly neutered the entire album is. Robbed of the power it should have had. Despite that I still put it in S tier just because I genuinely enjoy every single song on the album, but man, it could have been even better. I wish they'd released a remastered Reroute in the same way DT released remastered Damage Done in 2010. Remastered version of DD was awesome, made an amazing album even better. I'm sad Reroute is unlikely to ever get that treatment. Instead the band "remastered" Clayman, an album that didn't need it, because $$$. That debacle was enough to prove everybody wrong who stuck up for their supposed integrity as artists.

That’s understandable— I don’t want to come off like I don’t enjoy TJR when it’s great, because I absolutely do. However, it’s an album that I feel could’ve been better, and even though one could make the argument that Reroute needs a good remaster/re-recording (Emphasis on good), TJR would be my pick for it. I think Reroute is already iconic enough to newer fans, while TJR gets a bit lost in the shuffle for them. Couple that with “TJR2 when” that came up in interviews (At least according to the band and them not wanting to do it) for quite a few years, and I think it would’ve sated a lot of people— Hell, maybe it would’ve left them wanting more in a good way. Clayman was unfortunately the perfect mix of iconic to old and new fans, so the label decided it needed to print money. Thankfully or not thankfully, I doubt it did.

Technique absolutely does not mean good. Stanne's vocals were far more intense and interesting before he was forced to go with a technique and stick to it. Definitely the same for Anders, but Whoracle is not the album to talk about him finding his niche. I only brought up technique because he had none on the first few albums. He was just a wailing banshee. I mean, listen to this live version of Behind Space released around the same time as Whoracle:



Just painful to listen to. This was basically Anders on Whoracle, it was just hidden a lot better in studio.

Compare to the time Colony was released:



Night and day. 1996/1997 version is zero technique, 1999 version he has technique, albeit not one he could sustain long-term. It's still controlled, though, rather than the uncontrolled mess that was his vocal performances pre-1998.

Honestly, even though they’re not good objectively speaking, I kind of like the vocals in the live version. I don’t think I’d want a full album of that, but it reminds me of both Ryo and Sadew from Blood Stain Child, both of whom I quite like as vocalists— When they aren’t dogshit like in the new double album.

"Most underrated IF song" from reddit:

View attachment 36686

As I said man, there is ALWAYS someone. Also, from the 'unpopular opinions about In Flames' thread:

View attachment 36687

Always someone.

God fucking damn it. Can’t believe he put fucking Bottled and Superhero with four actually fantastic underrated songs. Minus is great, but the other three are genuinely top tier songs even without confining the list to just In Flames’ discography. Shit’s fucked.

 

[DE4life]

I love how you basically interviewed yourself.

Lmao, classic Slave for sure. He's been out of shape and wobbling since Battles knocked him sideways back in 2016, but right now he's making a comeback like Mike Tyson only wishes he could. Just needs that extra spark to ignite his SC fanboy passion again and it'll be like we're back in 2014 - before any of us gave two shits about Howard Benson.

I think my list really changes too much to make a definitive list. I've done it a few times and I don't think it's ever been the same, other than what I consider the classic four albums being at the top. The rest can and will fluctuate regularly except for Siren Charms being dead last. Sometimes I really like Come Clarity but then I remember songs like Scream, Reflect the Storm (which when this album was announced, I was positive was going to be amazing based on the title...), Leeches, just these sub par (in my opinion) tracks that kind of drag the album down. But then there's the title track, Vacuum, Crawl Through Knives (twice, iykyk), Our Infinite Struggle and Vanishing Light which I consider to be the highlights. Versus Terminus is fine, as is Take This Life (although I am burnt out on it). Dead End and Pacing Death's Trail I could take or leave.

My list stays quite static at this point to be honest. Reroute moved to top tier recently, but it probably should always have been there. I didn't realise how much love I had for that album until I really thought about it. Nothing much changes with the rest. SOAPF and CC just below the classics. Pretty much every new album, ITM aside, goes to the bottom. ASOP always remains low because the vocals and production will always be a disgrace, but it does have the last, dying remnants of that Jesper magic in the background, so it drags itself just above almost all the Benson era albums. STYE and Lunar/Sub in the middle - I'm OK with them, but they have significant flaws.

And in fact, I feel this way about most of IF's work post 2000. I can pick out songs that I really enjoy, but no album after Clayman can I say I enjoy all the way through. Even Battles I can find 1 or 2 songs that I enjoy on occasion. But for every Wallflower, there is an In My Room. And maybe this is the problem that I have with In Flames. In my mind, they turned into this band that became adept at writing filler. Sometimes it sounds like that's exactly what they're trying to do too. Obviously most bands have filler tracks, even if only a few (except Wintersun -- I can't say there's any filler there) but within the realm of bands I listen to, none have more than In Flames. I'm sure someone somewhere loves All The Pain, Dark Signs and The Puzzle but you're never convincing me those aren't filler tracks.

For me the big dropoff comes after SOAPF. I love Reroute from start to finish. Come Clarity has Scream and the title track which I skip (the latter due to Anders' vocals, which, I'm sorry, are HORRIBLE) but otherwise another album I enjoy. ASOP can take a long fall into a deep abyss, fuck that album. SOAPF just works for me. Not sure if nostalgia plays a part, but listening to almost anything from that album instantly gives me a good feeling. Even All For Me, just because it has the SOAPF sound. I still think the song sucks, but nonetheless.

After SOAPF though, massive downturn. SC - shit. Battles - shit. ITM - passable, STYE level. Elevated by good memories from the time and watching a good IF show live just after the album came out. Foregone - shit and, even worse, boring. First IF album where I've had no interest in listening to any of the songs again. Even Battles tracks got some rotation.

So, yeah, it's been 13 years and I have no doubt SOAPF is where IF ends for me as a band I truly enjoy. It was a good run though.

 

[DE4life]

That’s understandable— I don’t want to come off like I don’t enjoy TJR when it’s great, because I absolutely do. However, it’s an album that I feel could’ve been better, and even though one could make the argument that Reroute needs a good remaster/re-recording (Emphasis on good), TJR would be my pick for it. I think Reroute is already iconic enough to newer fans, while TJR gets a bit lost in the shuffle for them. Couple that with “TJR2 when” that came up in interviews (At least according to the band and them not wanting to do it) for quite a few years, and I think it would’ve sated a lot of people— Hell, maybe it would’ve left them wanting more in a good way. Clayman was unfortunately the perfect mix of iconic to old and new fans, so the label decided it needed to print money. Thankfully or not thankfully, I doubt it did.

A TJR remaster would theoretically be interesting ... if the band weren't involved in it. They've already proven they can't be trusted with their older material. I'd love for it to be given to Nordstrom, with the masters, and say - remaster this how you think it should have sounded. I imagine both TJR and Whoracle would be very different, although not necessarily better. I'm a big advocate for the OG TJR sound, as has been established

Honestly, even though they’re not good objectively speaking, I kind of like the vocals in the live version. I don’t think I’d want a full album of that, but it reminds me of both Ryo and Sadew from Blood Stain Child, both of whom I quite like as vocalists— When they aren’t dogshit like in the new double album.

I can sometimes deal with this type of vocal, to a degree. Lindberg sometimes sounded like this back in the 90s as well, and I can tolerate it. At least Anders did evolve his growling, eventually, into something more sustainable. Lord knows how he kept going the way he did, for as long as he did, though. Boy needs to count his genetic blessings, because he could easily have blown his throat out like Stanne and M. Shadows, for example, did.

God fucking damn it. Can’t believe he put fucking Bottled and Superhero with four actually fantastic underrated songs. Minus is great, but the other three are genuinely top tier songs even without confining the list to just In Flames’ discography. Shit’s fucked.

Bottled stands out like a sore thumb in that list to be honest, but with that being said, it's sad if the other songs are considered underrated songs in the nu IF fanbase. Superhero - sure, that's a low key one. Free fall, sure - never played live, so fair enough. Zombie Inc though? That should be regarded as an all time classic for every fan of the band. It'd be like a Metallica fan saying The Four Horsemen is underrated. WTF. Swim, not to the same level, but still... do nu in Flames fans really not rate it? I always remember Minus being considered a top song from Reroute, but again, barely played live so I'll give that one a pass.

 

[Jester Slave]

I mean, it's less than a year and still quite a short time to turnaround your opinion to such a degree. But considering how half-hearted your praise above is, it still makes me think you must believe In Flames have had a pretty poor career in terms of overall artistic output if Foregone is in the top half of ALL the albums they've released. An album that's basically half-retreads of their own music or other Swedish bands from the 90s (cough ATG) and half the usual Benson-inspired bullshit with horrifically autotuned vocals.

I do think IF might have found the formula though. Release a few singles that sound vaguely like stuff people think you sounded like in the past, even if you really didn't, and nobody will give a shit about the rest of the album. Too hypnotised by the "IFWT IF ARE BACK BOIZ BACK TO DA ROOTS" bandwagon that comes around every time a new album comes out. It's always a lie, but this time it was even worse in a way as they actually did bring some stuff from the past back - just not their past.

I think you wouldn't take such an issue with Foregone's place if it wasn't last in tier B but first in tier C. This list is also self-contained, so everything is strictly compared to the top IF materials. Other than LS, I have no issue listening to songs from any of these records. Back to Foregone, as of right now, it's definitely the high-point of the Benson-era. Battles is Battles. ITM have some great songs, but too many embarassingly bad ones (House, We Will Remember, In This LifeeeEEEEeeeEEEE). Putting Follow Me, All the Pain and Save Me on the same record was also a baffling idea. How many of these sing-along pseudo-ballads do we need? Especially when Save Me clearly rises above the other two, so they become redundant.

State of Slow Decay, The Great Deceiver and Foregone pt 1. are not songs which I ever expected to hear from this iteration of In Flames, which started with SOAPF. I, The Mask already had its title song and I Am Above, which already sounded like pre-SOAPF IF and carried that record along with Save Me, but the rest of the record was still just a better Battles, sometimes even worse. Foregone still bears the many sickness of a Benson production, but it also delivers a refreshing sound, some unexpected bangers, while still providing songs with the expected catchy choruses. The tragedy of Foregone that with proper care and ambition, it could've been made into an A-tier record. But I don't think Benson is capable of that, and more importantly, I don't think two burnt-out, old metalheads can care enough to put in the time and effort.

I agree that TJR's sound suits it and I wouldn't want to change it, though I would be interested to hear a proper, expensive, 1:1 rerecording of it, which is of course impossible, and not just because of the vocals. It's also not just an In Flames problem. I love Master of Puppets, but I hate its sound as well, and probably most studio sound from the 80s or before. Ziggy Stardust is a great song for example, but that's just not the guitar sound I grew up with.



This is a modern mdm production which I dig. It manages to emulate the older mdm sound, but the instrument sound modern.

 

[The Grayfox]

What is disconcerting to me is you people keep putting RTR in S tier. For fuck's sake, stop it.

Slave will no doubt steam in and say "people can have other opinions ya know, hive mind, hurr durr", but it's nothing to do with that. Some things are just shit, and it's OK to say "I know it's shit, but I like it", rather than trying to convince everyone something is actually amazing when it clearly and obviously is not.

For sure. For instance, I like the movie Stop or My Mom Will Shoot! It is a terrible film, but I saw it when I was like 10 and I grew up loving Stallone movies, so I have a soft spot for it. However, I know it's garbage. It doesn't stop me from liking it. It's not like I would ever compare it to Rocky or First Blood or anything. I'll be the first one to say "this movie fucking sucks", but I still like it.

I still don't understand the hate for TJR's production. I really like the drum mix on it. The kick drum is really nice and punchy. The drum work as a whole is very basic, but I've never been turned off by the way it sounds. And by comparison, I feel like Whoracle sounds a bit flat. I love Whoracle and have no problem with the mix, but I prefer TJR in terms of overall sound. I seriously don't hear anything but a pretty crisp clean production, especially for what I assume was a relatively low budget in 1996. I have a sub in my car and I'm telling you, if I turn the bass up, the kick drum on December Flower will cave your chest in. There are moments on Whoracle where if I do the same, it goes "burrburrrburrrburrrburrrburr" and I can't even distinguish between the kick and bass.

This is a modern mdm production which I dig. It manages to emulate the older mdm sound, but the instrument sound modern.

A lot of purists will tell you that modern, digital production is garbage, but when it comes to metal, I greatly prefer it. Special care has to be taken with metal production because it's very easy for sounds to get lost due to speed. If you have a fast double kick pattern and it isn't mixed right, you'll lose the drums and it'll just sound awful. Modern production techniques have greatly fixed a lot of those issues. Your Highness has very clean production. How's The Heart does too, but slightly less so imo.

 

[eochaid]

I'm no expert but, considereing that new bands from marginalized new genres with an expectation of 1000 (?) sales usually have insane amounts of money to spend on the production of their albums, I can only think that, for TJR, they spent all of the money on booze and prostitutes.

 

[Xpyro125]

My list stays quite static at this point to be honest. Reroute moved to top tier recently, but it probably should always have been there. I didn't realise how much love I had for that album until I really thought about it. Nothing much changes with the rest. SOAPF and CC just below the classics. Pretty much every new album, ITM aside, goes to the bottom. ASOP always remains low because the vocals and production will always be a disgrace, but it does have the last, dying remnants of that Jesper magic in the background, so it drags itself just above almost all the Benson era albums. STYE and Lunar/Sub in the middle - I'm OK with them, but they have significant flaws.

For me the big dropoff comes after SOAPF. I love Reroute from start to finish. Come Clarity has Scream and the title track which I skip (the latter due to Anders' vocals, which, I'm sorry, are HORRIBLE) but otherwise another album I enjoy. ASOP can take a long fall into a deep abyss, fuck that album. SOAPF just works for me. Not sure if nostalgia plays a part, but listening to almost anything from that album instantly gives me a good feeling. Even All For Me, just because it has the SOAPF sound. I still think the song sucks, but nonetheless.

After SOAPF though, massive downturn. SC - shit. Battles - shit. ITM - passable, STYE level. Elevated by good memories from the time and watching a good IF show live just after the album came out. Foregone - shit and, even worse, boring. First IF album where I've had no interest in listening to any of the songs again. Even Battles tracks got some rotation.

So, yeah, it's been 13 years and I have no doubt SOAPF is where IF ends for me as a band I truly enjoy. It was a good run though.

What is disconcerting to me is you people keep putting RTR in S tier. For fuck's sake, stop it.

Being real, there are a lot of Reroute songs that just don’t do much for me when I’m not super in the mood for them, which just isn’t often. I used to hate System, but it’s honestly the only one of the first three tracks that I can get into on a semi-regular basis— The title track isn’t bad, but as an opener? It leaves me wanting compared to the opener of every IF album from Lunar Strain all the way to Foregone, with exception to In Plain View. That one’s pretty lackluster. I have to be in the mood for Dawn of a New Day since it feels like you could shave off like a minute of it in the middle and have a more satisfying progression through the song. I don’t think Egonomic beats out Drifter and Black and White for being the weakest song on the album, but it’s close, which sucks because it’s the only one with riffing that feels like it truly was a leftover song from the classic era. I think it could’ve greatly benefitted from CC’s style of production, even if the chorus would still suck. Then Black and White just sucks as a song, and especially as a closer. It would’ve been so much better if Metaphor or Watch Them Feed was the closer, and it’s clear that the latter was cut simply because they needed a bonus track. The album has quite a few top tier songs like Transparent and Free Fall, but that really doesn’t save it from all the songs I just generally don’t care for.

I’ll respond to the rest of the first quote after work, I’m on limited time right now.

 

[DE4life]

I think you wouldn't take such an issue with Foregone's place if it wasn't last in tier B but first in tier C. This list is also self-contained, so everything is strictly compared to the top IF materials. Other than LS, I have no issue listening to songs from any of these records. Back to Foregone, as of right now, it's definitely the high-point of the Benson-era. Battles is Battles. ITM have some great songs, but too many embarassingly bad ones (House, We Will Remember, In This LifeeeEEEEeeeEEEE). Putting Follow Me, All the Pain and Save Me on the same record was also a baffling idea. How many of these sing-along pseudo-ballads do we need? Especially when Save Me clearly rises above the other two, so they become redundant.

I much prefer ITM to Foregone. It isn't even a contest. ITM might have some seriously dodgy moments, but at least it's interesting and pretty unique sounding. Actually reminds me of In Flames, for the most part. We know House was a Battles leftover, and I think ITL may also have been a leftover. Why they felt the need to put Battles leftovers on the album is beyond me, unless they really didn't have enough creativity for two more songs, but it is what it is.

We Will Remember is hardly embarrassingly bad in the same vein, it's just average.

I don't rate ITM as a great IF album or anything like that, but I do find it interesting. Foregone is just boring af. Even the supposedly "better" songs that give the album its supposed "edge" are just rehashes of stuff they've done in the past - TGD is a shitty CC tribute. SoSD is like if AI mashed up ATG with Benson's IF. Foregone Part 2 is what Whoracle would have sounded like if Benson was producing it. rest of the album is just a snoozefest to me. Nothing new or interesting. Nothing other bands aren't doing far better. If the album didn't have "In Flames" as the artist, nobody would give a shit about it. Same as almost everything they've released post-2011.

I'm not even going to comment on your bizarre love for Save Me, wtf. Song is shit.

This is a modern mdm production which I dig. It manages to emulate the older mdm sound, but the instrument sound modern.

Eh? it sounds like Blinded Colony, which is from mid-2000s. The production is just your average 2007 metalcore album.

 

[DE4life]

What is disconcerting to me is you people keep putting RTR in S tier. For fuck's sake, stop it.

sorry bro. A lot of it is nostalgia for me, no doubt. I played a lot of Reroute when I was in high school, alongside all of IF discography at the time (2002-2003). I loved all the albums, including Reroute. I get why people have issues with it, but I can genuinely say I love every song on the album, from start to finish.

For sure. For instance, I like the movie Stop or My Mom Will Shoot! It is a terrible film, but I saw it when I was like 10 and I grew up loving Stallone movies, so I have a soft spot for it. However, I know it's garbage. It doesn't stop me from liking it. It's not like I would ever compare it to Rocky or First Blood or anything. I'll be the first one to say "this movie fucking sucks", but I still like it.

Exactly. I really enjoy the Dungeons and Dragons movie from 2000. I'm well aware it is absolute fucking garbage in every possible way, and I'd never try to convince anybody otherwise, but I still like it. Probably just nostalgia, mainly. Point is I'm not going to go around telling everyone the film is actually underrated and a hidden gem. People don't seem to be able to accept nowadays that it's possible to like something that, by most objective metrics, sucks. I can remember in some thread years ago Slave trying to defend some bullshit, might have been about Anders' attempts at singing - calling it "unique" or whatever - but I can remember someone just bluntly replying something like "you just need to acknowledge that you enjoy shit vocals", lmao. Simple but true.

I still don't understand the hate for TJR's production. I really like the drum mix on it. The kick drum is really nice and punchy. The drum work as a whole is very basic, but I've never been turned off by the way it sounds. And by comparison, I feel like Whoracle sounds a bit flat. I love Whoracle and have no problem with the mix, but I prefer TJR in terms of overall sound. I seriously don't hear anything but a pretty crisp clean production, especially for what I assume was a relatively low budget in 1996. I have a sub in my car and I'm telling you, if I turn the bass up, the kick drum on December Flower will cave your chest in. There are moments on Whoracle where if I do the same, it goes "burrburrrburrrburrrburrrburr" and I can't even distinguish between the kick and bass.

I pretty much agree. TJR's production suits the album perfectly. Whoracle's sound is chunky at times. It sounds more like what you'd expect a "typical" metal album to be produced like, but I wouldn't say it's better than TJR. Both are generally fine how they are.

 

[DE4life]

Being real, there are a lot of Reroute songs that just don’t do much for me when I’m not super in the mood for them, which just isn’t often. I used to hate System, but it’s honestly the only one of the first three tracks that I can get into on a semi-regular basis— The title track isn’t bad, but as an opener? It leaves me wanting compared to the opener of every IF album from Lunar Strain all the way to Foregone, with exception to In Plain View. That one’s pretty lackluster. I have to be in the mood for Dawn of a New Day since it feels like you could shave off like a minute of it in the middle and have a more satisfying progression through the song. I don’t think Egonomic beats out Drifter and Black and White for being the weakest song on the album, but it’s close, which sucks because it’s the only one with riffing that feels like it truly was a leftover song from the classic era. I think it could’ve greatly benefitted from CC’s style of production, even if the chorus would still suck. Then Black and White just sucks as a song, and especially as a closer. It would’ve been so much better if Metaphor or Watch Them Feed was the closer, and it’s clear that the latter was cut simply because they needed a bonus track. The album has quite a few top tier songs like Transparent and Free Fall, but that really doesn’t save it from all the songs I just generally don’t care for.

I’ll respond to the rest of the first quote after work, I’m on limited time right now.

Oh man, I am definitely at the opposite end of a lot of this.

I love the title track to Reroute. I think it's a massively underrated song in their discography. Those keys in the intro and then the guitar riffs just get my head nodding immediately. I love when at 0:33 it breaks into those nice melodies for about ten seconds. The proceeding verse is a bit basic, granted, but at the same time with better production this would have been so much better. Imagine "destroy the pattern" with much more crunch in the guitars and much less compression on Anders' voice. Would be absolutely sick. The chorus is actually really clever if you really listen to the vocal melodies - there's some unusual stuff going on there that isn't easy to replicate, and it sounds good. I think a lot of effort went into those chorus vocal melodies and I appreciate it. I really like the lyrics on this song too. 'Design new latitudes, find ways to channel bliss. Us defined, it's too fragile to neglect. Reroute to remain, reroute to remain'. How did we go from this to 'You ripped da heart out, you ripped da heart ouuuuttt'? Sigh.

System I've always loved, from the beginning. One of my favourite IF tracks.

Drifter I can understand being so-so on. It isn't an all-time classic or anything. Fairly simple thrashy track, but I do like it. I can remember being disappointed when they were playing it live in 2006 though - back then I felt they could have played something more interesting, and still do. Drifter is OK but there are better tracks from Reroute to choose.

I'll admit I don't listen to Dawn of a New Day too often. I like it, but I rarely have the need to listen to it.

Egonomic, I just love the intensity. Absolutely zero wasted energy, the song is racing at 100 miles an hour. The second verse is like, 11 seconds long or something, haha. Another one that would be incredible with different production. The chorus is a bit like a nursery rhyme admittedly, lmao, but I'm fine with it. Maybe just because I've heard it so many times. That section after the second chorus where Anders screams 'we are getting weaker!' and the guitars take over is just incredibly awesome.

I love the groove of Black and White. I love the spacey, out there verse vocals. I love the lyrics. 'You say that you have no regrets, but I know that you do!' - nothing massively original, but just the way he screams this line is perfect. Also 'You claim that you are innocent, but tell me who ain't. You think that you're gonna be saved? There's no such thing as a saint'. Again, just love the delivery and the lyrics. The chorus is one of my favourite IF choruses. I really like how at the end the chorus switches up completely. Again, you can tell a lot of thought went into the vocal compositions.

I could go on, but fuck, I really do love Reroute, haha. More than I realised. I haven't even covered Trigger, Cloud Connected, Minus, Dark Signs or Metaphor, all of which are just stone cold classics.

 

[eochaid]

Leaving aside the sound, I fail to see what's to hate about r2r.

 

[eochaid]

I agree that it was a shocking change when it was released. I even stopped listening to it for almost a whole year. Then, I started listening to it again and it's a great album. Yesit lacks all the guitar layers that I love but I don't think that is that much a problem. The songs are heavy, catchy, light and well structured.

 

[eochaid]

Ah. It seems that Jesper is making music on his own.