New album Foregone out February 2023

[Jester Slave]

The pretentiousness aspect comes from the fact that LS is pretty much a glorified demo, which basically no one considers to be anything special, not even the makers of it. It's not even a controversial record, because it's your run of the mill mdm-attempt by session musicians, and a bang average at that if we exclude Behind Space, which I don't personally like, but undoubtedly a very interesting track. I'm playing through some of the tracks as I am writing this comment, and the title track is what I would imagine a brain aneurism feels like. I'm at the 2:50 mark and so far I've heard 6 different song snippets in this one track, 5 of them which suck ass, 1 of them is passable (the main riff, if we can call it that), but most importantly, it has no rhyme, reason or any structure.

Upon an Oaken Throne sounds like a prototype Hammerfall song minus the singing, which is a plus in my books, but why would anyone listen to that over an actual Hammerfall record? Same thing with Clad in Shadows, but while UAOT kinda just chugs all the way to the end, CIA once again falls into the category of being all over the place.

I'm also not a fan of songs like Graveland or Lord Hypnos, but at least they sound like actual songs, instead whatever the fuck is going on with LS. But how does anyone listen to Moonshield and not recognize that TJR is in a different universe than LS? Are you familiar with those (imo 100% fake) videos on youtube where people record their first time listening to some popular music? If I was shown some TJR bangers like Moonshield, Artifacts, December Flower or Dead Eternity for the first time, I would make the same faces those guys do, which look like they are being anally fisted, but they enjoy it a lot. TJR has 10/10 melodies, depth, an actual (albeit to me still very much so crude) production, while also having that youthful energy and willingness to experiment which only debut albums can have. TJR would be a legit contender for being the very best old-school mdm records out there, whilst LS' name would not even come up.

Also, you shouldn't have A- categories, because it gives room for some cop-out decisions. An A- should either be A or B.

 

[Xpyro125]

But how does anyone listen to Moonshield and not recognize that TJR is in a different universe than LS? Are you familiar with those (imo 100% fake) videos on youtube where people record their first time listening to some popular music? If I was shown some TJR bangers like Moonshield, Artifacts, December Flower or Dead Eternity for the first time, I would make the same faces those guys do, which look like they are being anally fisted, but they enjoy it a lot. TJR has 10/10 melodies, depth, an actual (albeit to me still very much so crude) production, while also having that youthful energy and willingness to experiment which only debut albums can have. TJR would be a legit contender for being the very best old-school mdm records out there, whilst LS' name would not even come up.

Moonshield and December Flower are two of my favorite IF songs, so that much is a pretty good point. TJR’s high points are definitely infinitely higher, and it does make sense that it is discussed to this day while LS isn’t. But when I feel that I just don’t enjoy three out of the ten songs, one being the closing track, it brings down my impression of it significantly. If we were to include Black Ash Inheritance with TJR, it’d absolutely beat out LS since Goliaths and Acoustic Medley are two more of my favorite IF songs, and I end up enjoying ten out of thirteen tracks by that point.

But I guess in a way, I don’t really believe that common discourse necessarily correlates to quality (Or a lack thereof when there isn’t any)— Some of my favorite albums are generally neglected by their fanbases or as a whole, and sometimes overrated pieces of shit get way too much time in the limelight. I don’t think that means LS is the best of the best, since it isn’t, but I just enjoy what I enjoy, and I do enjoy it in spite of its faults. I’ll always acknowledge its faults and how those being down the listening experience, but I’ll (hopefully) still enjoy it.

Also, damn, the title track’s my favorite song on the album. I respect your opinion, but damn.

Also, you shouldn't have A- categories, because it gives room for some cop-out decisions. An A- should either be A or B.

That’s a pretty good point, though I really didn’t want to push everything in A- through C down a tier. Reroute is definitely better than D tier, though I think STYE is in at least one tier above it— But then I don’t feel that albums like Clayman and TJR should drop down to the same tier as STYE. They’re far better objectively, and depending on my mood subjectively too. ITM could absolutely be a B tier album if I had to condense them, though I also don’t feel like I’d put Clayman and TJR, albums which have great highlights but multiple tracks I’d instantly skip in with an album like Colony, where Resin is the only sour spot for me. I know this is definitely overthinking it, but I’d prefer to just take the caveat of a grading curve over making my opinions appear more negative than they actually are. I love In Flames, they’re my favorite band even with the shit they’ve put out since 2014. I feel like I acknowledge all of their colossal fuckups enough, maybe even more harshly than I should at times. Probably not since House exists, but you know.

If I really had to put A- albums in different tiers, I think Clayman would be in A and ITM in B. I’m not sure where TJR and LS would end up, but maybe it’d be A. I think Colony and Subterranean are quite a ways better than everything A-, but that’s just prolonging the discussion more than it needs to be.

 

[DE4life]

Damn, mention Lunar Strain and it's like the bat signal for Slave. Barely said a word for years until LS is praised, then bam, back to the good ol' days. Brings a tear to my eye.

I like most of LS. Only the title track, Dreamscape and Everlost Part I are tracks I don't enjoy. Apparently that means I'm being pretentious, whereas I always thought I just enjoyed the songs, lmao. TIL.

Production on LS is obviously shit. Nothing anyone can do about that. BS and CiS on Colony show what the true potential of LS tracks were. The Colony versions sound incredible.

On Subterranean the production is still pretty weak, shrieky vocals an acquired taste at best, lyrics like something out of a vampire erotica novel, and a quite slow, gothic sounding EP as a whole. I like it but I don't consider it better than LS. It's just different. TJR combines the more aggressive elements of LS and the melodic guitar work of Subterranean to present the completed package.

 

[The Grayfox]

I mean, it's all subjective I suppose, so really, who gives a shit? I don't think it's pretentious to like any IF album. Unless you live in Brooklyn and swear up and down that the avant garde black metal jazz band that has 5 monthly Spotify listeners is "the best band you've ever heard", I think you're fine. When you hit that territory, we can start throwing the word "pretentious" around.

To me, Subterranean has better quality songs on it, even if it is an EP. Stand Ablaze and the title track especially I just think are really good MDM songs. Sure, Lunar Strain has a few good songs, I won't argue that, but the production and Mikael kill it for me. That weird throaty almost Louis Armstrong-singing-death metal thing that was really apparent in the early years is on full display here and I just don't like it. You hear it a lot when there's no post-processing or a record is badly mixed. I remember his voice sounded like shit on the Live Damage DVD too, at least to my ears.

 

[Jester Slave]

Here's the definitive IF tier list, with the records being in rating order within their tier. Everyone is welcome.

Q&A for my Onlyfans supporters:

Why STYE ahead Clayman? I do believe that from an objective, academic musical theory standpoint Clayman is a better craft, but I enjoy STYE more. It's a worthy harbringer of what eventually be CC. Snappy, in your face, aggressive riffs, neat electronics and Anders' [studio] voice is still peaking. I'm an unapologetic industrial metal lover, and this is probably the closest IF will ever sound like industrial metal. A good example of this industrial chaos is the song Superhero.

Why is TJR in C tier and why is SC above it? The production sounds extremely dated and even though almost half of the record is amazing (before these scores get reduced by the production), the other half is very forgettable. And this is a RECORD tier list, not a best individual track tier list, nor a most influential records tier list. So if I am skipping 6 out of the 10 songs then I really can't rate it much higher. I am also counting the bonus tracks for SC as they are readily available on streaming, so I don't consider the barrier of entry too high to access those songs.

Is Colony that bad? Probably not, but I can hardly stomach it. The title track is great and the solo on Zombie Inc. is possibly the single best IF magic ever recorded, but the production is extremely bland (sounds good, but bland) and it feels like a much weaker version of the TJR formula: instead of 10/10 tracks we are getting some 7/10s, while half of the record is still forgettable. It may be unfair but I am also ignoring the Behind Space rerecording. It would bump up the record on the tier list, but to me it's not a Colony track. I didn't do the same with Dead Eternity, because it's still much closer to the TJR sessions than an LS track to Colony, plus it wouldn't really change TJR's rating either way.

Is ASOP that good? Probably not, but I have a soft spot for it. It was the first IF record released after I had already been a fan, and I was in love with Alias. For the longest time, before interacting with you, other fans, I thought Alias (and Reflect the Storm lol) were monstrous hits within the fanbase. Sure, Alias is liked, but we were all over the moon for it back then. I also like the guitar work on that record, some really neat riffs.

Don't you hate SOAPF? Well, if I am sentimental for ASOP for being the last "2nd phase" IF record, then I am the opposite of sentimental for SOAPF, which introduced this new alt-rock sound. On one hand, it is undoubtedly a well-constructed record with a bunch of good songs and a few fillers, but on the other hand it was my turn to be slapped in the face by them abandoning the sound, so suddenly I was owing an apology for the original fans who were complaing about R2R. I may be more favorable towards it if they returned to their (second) roots afterwards instead of doubling down with SC, but forefronting tier B is a pretty respectable position imo.

Do you hate Battles as much as LS? I don't hate it at all, but it is an extremely low-effort record. The only songs I can respect are The Truth and The End; almost everything else are just different, safe variations of the same exact song.

 

[The Grayfox]

Now that's controversial. I don't know that I've ever seen Colony that far down. It seems to be a unanimously loved album. Personally I think the second half suffers quite a bit, but I think the first half is so strong that I can overlook it.

I love how you basically interviewed yourself. You're really living up to the Narcissist moniker there

I think my list really changes too much to make a definitive list. I've done it a few times and I don't think it's ever been the same, other than what I consider the classic four albums being at the top. The rest can and will fluctuate regularly except for Siren Charms being dead last. Sometimes I really like Come Clarity but then I remember songs like Scream, Reflect the Storm (which when this album was announced, I was positive was going to be amazing based on the title...), Leeches, just these sub par (in my opinion) tracks that kind of drag the album down. But then there's the title track, Vacuum, Crawl Through Knives (twice, iykyk), Our Infinite Struggle and Vanishing Light which I consider to be the highlights. Versus Terminus is fine, as is Take This Life (although I am burnt out on it). Dead End and Pacing Death's Trail I could take or leave.

And in fact, I feel this way about most of IF's work post 2000. I can pick out songs that I really enjoy, but no album after Clayman can I say I enjoy all the way through. Even Battles I can find 1 or 2 songs that I enjoy on occasion. But for every Wallflower, there is an In My Room. And maybe this is the problem that I have with In Flames. In my mind, they turned into this band that became adept at writing filler. Sometimes it sounds like that's exactly what they're trying to do too. Obviously most bands have filler tracks, even if only a few (except Wintersun -- I can't say there's any filler there) but within the realm of bands I listen to, none have more than In Flames. I'm sure someone somewhere loves All The Pain, Dark Signs and The Puzzle but you're never convincing me those aren't filler tracks.

 

[eochaid]

And here we go again .

 

[DE4life]

I mean, Slave's tier list just looks completely random. Explanation which I skimmed over seems to boil down to 'it's my subjective opinion' which is fine, we all like what we like, but it's tough to make sense of it from an objective viewpoint.

 

[DE4life]

I mean, it's all subjective I suppose, so really, who gives a shit? I don't think it's pretentious to like any IF album. Unless you live in Brooklyn and swear up and down that the avant garde black metal jazz band that has 5 monthly Spotify listeners is "the best band you've ever heard", I think you're fine. When you hit that territory, we can start throwing the word "pretentious" around.

To me, Subterranean has better quality songs on it, even if it is an EP. Stand Ablaze and the title track especially I just think are really good MDM songs. Sure, Lunar Strain has a few good songs, I won't argue that, but the production and Mikael kill it for me. That weird throaty almost Louis Armstrong-singing-death metal thing that was really apparent in the early years is on full display here and I just don't like it. You hear it a lot when there's no post-processing or a record is badly mixed. I remember his voice sounded like shit on the Live Damage DVD too, at least to my ears.

I agree on your first paragraph. Lunar Strain is a fairly typical early MDM/DM record. If you're a fan of that era why wouldn't you like it? And you could easily rank it higher if you prefer classic early MDM to the commercial sound that evolved in the 2000s.

Vocals don't bother me that much on LS, although they aren't Mikael's best. Compared to vampire screeching about lost love and drinking blood wine or whatever on Sub I still prefer Stanne. I am not a huge fan of Forss' vocals in general though, so, it's personal preference to a degree.

 

[Jester Slave]

I agree on your first paragraph. Lunar Strain is a fairly typical early MDM/DM record. If you're a fan of that era why wouldn't you like it? And you could easily rank it higher if you prefer classic early MDM to the commercial sound that evolved in the 2000s.

Vocals don't bother me that much on LS, although they aren't Mikael's best. Compared to vampire screeching about lost love and drinking blood wine or whatever on Sub I still prefer Stanne. I am not a huge fan of Forss' vocals in general though, so, it's personal preference to a degree.

Because it's dogshit lol. And you can still put it in C tier while also liking it, otherwise it's not a tier list but a Steam review. LS is completely mediocre compared its contemporary mdm acts, it also fails spectacularly compared to TJR, and even its creators laugh about how it's basically a combination of a demo tape plus some hastily recorded songs. This is how I imagine people who put it above C:

I mean, Slave's tier list just looks completely random. Explanation which I skimmed over seems to boil down to 'it's my subjective opinion' which is fine, we all like what we like, but it's tough to make sense of it from an objective viewpoint.

How is that random lol? Their Whoracle - Come Clarity stretch of records are all in the S or A tiers with the exception of Colony, and ASOP is also being rated higher than by most, as it's the record which closed out the era of R2R-STYE-CC-ASOP, which is clearly close to my heart. SOAPF is rated relatively highly, while its watered down lil bro record, SC is a whole tier below it. It's mostly Colony which stands out, hence my special explanation about it.

 

[DE4life]

Having Whoracle as A tier and TJR as C tier is obviously random and bizarre. Also having TJR and SC on the same tier is pretty weird. Colony being in the tier it's in makes little sense even with your attempted explanation. Can't imagine anyone else would put Clayman in A tier and Colony in D tier. Wtf. Still, as I said, it's your opinion so you do you. The fact very few other IF fans would likely come anywhere close to the order you've chosen makes your selections random, in that they would be an extreme outlier. Only Phobiac might be a challenger.

I also find it strange that you were extremely unenthusiastic about Foregone, to the point of being worse than me or Eochaid at points, and yet it's B tier? Lol, okay then. It bored you when you first heard it, as evidenced on this thread, but now it's in their top eight albums of all time. Sure. Must have really, really grown on you. Even funnier considering how much you used to stan for SC, and yet Foregone is above it? Damn. Even Phobiac is cold on SC these days, so maybe me, Eochaid and A88 are owed an apology for the insults aimed at our direction in the past for supposedly not understanding the beauty and passion of SC.

 

[DE4life]

Now you better believe this is as real as real gets. Also the order inside the tier is irrelevant, they're just grouped by tier, not individually.

 

[Jester Slave]

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I can't say anything new about Colony. I tried, tried and tried, but could never get into it. Something is off with that production; it feels overwhelming and most of the songs ranging between forgettable and OK. I am not a fan of Clayman's production either, but almost every single song there feels like a different experience where every instrument get their breathing room, so you can enjoy them.

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier. Mind you, I added an extra tier to my list, so you can read them as S-superb/perfect, A-very good, B-good, C-average, D-bad, F-godawful. I had to put Foregone in a higher tier because it's more varied, sounds better and brought back some much needed edge to the band. Although it wasn't intentional, I think tier B's first and last pick represents two sides of a coin: SOAPF is mostly a safe and bland sounding record in which they clearly put a lot of effort into, while Foregone juggles many ideas but only manages to realize like half of them, and they refused to put the other half back in the oven.

 

[Jester Slave]

View attachment 36682

Now you better believe this is as real as real gets. Also the order inside the tier is irrelevant, they're just grouped by tier, not individually.

Put LS above C you coward

 

[DE4life]

Put LS above C you coward

Right after you do the same for SC :>

 

[eochaid]

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier.

Rejoice, because I put Foregone below SC. But, all of this discussion is about purely subjective matters. So it's not that important. It's like saying that TJR being Anders's favourite album, or Jesper's defense of ASOP have a different meaning that them just being appreciative of their own works because of pure subjective reasons.

 

[Jester Slave]

Wtf a fucking wasp just stung me. Put down your Slave voodo dolls, it's not funny!

As for the tier lists, of course it's subjective, but at least it's fun. If we dismissed everything like Spock would, then we would miss out on many of the joys life can offer. Wasps, in fact, do not belong to such joys.

 

[Xpyro125]

View attachment 36681
Here's the definitive IF tier list, with the records being in rating order within their tier. Everyone is welcome.

You know what, good shit, always nice to see someone who loves Whoracle and CC as much as I do.

Q&A for my Onlyfans supporters:

Why STYE ahead Clayman? I do believe that from an objective, academic musical theory standpoint Clayman is a better craft, but I enjoy STYE more. It's a worthy harbringer of what eventually be CC. Snappy, in your face, aggressive riffs, neat electronics and Anders' [studio] voice is still peaking. I'm an unapologetic industrial metal lover, and this is probably the closest IF will ever sound like industrial metal. A good example of this industrial chaos is the song Superhero.

Fair enough, simply enjoying something is all the reason you really need to place it high. I do like the mention of Superhero because it’s the one track I just don’t care for, saved for Bottled. I’m not sure that any of us like Bottled that much.

Why is TJR in C tier and why is SC above it? The production sounds extremely dated and even though almost half of the record is amazing (before these scores get reduced by the production), the other half is very forgettable. And this is a RECORD tier list, not a best individual track tier list, nor a most influential records tier list. So if I am skipping 6 out of the 10 songs then I really can't rate it much higher. I am also counting the bonus tracks for SC as they are readily available on streaming, so I don't consider the barrier of entry too high to access those songs.

Holy shit, they actually put Become the Sky on music services. If you didn’t say that I would’ve never known, since they haven’t had it for years. I’ve just been listening to a version I ripped from YouTube and uploaded to my iTunes files myself back in like 2016, so to finally have it available is so fucking nice.

But yeah, completely agreed with TJR though it’s just three tracks for me.

Having Whoracle as A tier and TJR as C tier is obviously random and bizarre. Also having TJR and SC on the same tier is pretty weird. Colony being in the tier it's in makes little sense even with your attempted explanation. Can't imagine anyone else would put Clayman in A tier and Colony in D tier. Wtf. Still, as I said, it's your opinion so you do you. The fact very few other IF fans would likely come anywhere close to the order you've chosen makes your selections random, in that they would be an extreme outlier. Only Phobiac might be a challenger.

In fairness to him, my list shares a surprising amount of similarity to his in that regard— Not the Colony in D tier part, that one’s an opinion I’ll never have.
Edit: this is supposed to quote de4life, but the formatting has decided to fucking melt itself once again. Goddamn it.

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

If I could’ve liked this message multiple times, I would’ve. I love the folky and melodic nature of TJR, but the sheer groove of Whoracle is so fucking good, and it’s almost a precursor in CC in some ways. I personally love every song on here, with the only sour moment being Gyroscope’s chorus due to the backing vocals there. I’ve mentioned it a few times now. While I don’t think anything will ever top CC for me, there are times when I enjoy Whoracle more than SoaPF, at least if I’m in the mood for it.

 

[eochaid]

You know what, good shit, always nice to see someone who loves Whoracle and CC as much as I do.

CC is, probably, my favourite IF album.

 

[DE4life]

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I genuinely think you're the only person I've come across who has such a massive issue with TJR's production. Like, enough to knock it down multiple tiers. I never see this opinion anywhere else. Personally I think TJR's production is spot on for the folky, melancholic, dystopian vibe the album is going for. I don't really understand the Whoracle comment either. It's generally accepted that Whoracle's production isn't the best - even Jesper has admitted that. It's kind of thick rather than crisp, although again it doesn't bother me enough to knock it down any tiers. I'm fine with both albums how they are.

Lunar Strain I can understand knocking down a tier or two for production. TJR though? I don't really see the logic, considering it's an issue very few people have ever expressed about the album, whereas many people note that Lunar's production is poor. I'm also curious as to how Reroute, which I love but has one of the worst IF mixes ever, gets into S tier with production seemingly completely ignored, whilst TJR gets obliterated for it.

Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I agree that there's a slight improvement on Whoracle compared to TJR, but no way has he found his niche at that point. He still has zero technique, as any live shows from around the time Whoracle was recorded will attest to. It was only really in 1998 and starting in studio on Colony that he found the voice people would truly recognise him for (unique higher pitched scream/rasp). Whoracle he's still trying to be "Swedish death metal vocalist", on Colony he's really becoming Anders as most would know him going forward.

I am not a fan of Clayman's production either, but almost every single song there feels like a different experience where every instrument get their breathing room, so you can enjoy them.

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production, but okay. From memory I think you're more into Static-X (RIP dude with crazy hair), NIN, etc than metal, so maybe that's understandable.

In terms of every instrument having breathing room... in some ways, yeah, but Clayman is ultimately a guitar-led and driven album in every respect. Bass plays no real part in dictating the pace or direction of the music, and the vocals have no influence musically at all. It's just layered over the top, essentially. Drumming on Clayman is cool, though, I will give ye that - and Daniel sounds great on that record. He did Leinad proud.

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier.

It would be pretty decent for us, maybe, who have heavily criticised it. Not for you, who has staunchly defended it. I seriously can't believe you went from this in September:

Anyhow, Forgeone pt. 1 sounds like an actual song, and not just a catchy chorus or one good riff. If the whole record had that kind of songmaking I think it could've been really good, but instead most of the tracks lack imagination.

And say what you will about SC but those were at least properly done songs from start to finish. Maybe you guys don't like the mixing of it, or more understandably, the complete lack of urgency in the tracks, but at least most of them are complete songs, and not "that chorus" or "that riff".

To now putting Foregone AHEAD of SC in your rankings, lmao. Album with no imagination or complete songs is now B tier. Bro, what is going on? How did an album full of "that chorus" or "that riff" become better than basically half of the band's entire discography to you? Do you think IF have just had quite a shitty career generally, or have you discovered some hidden wisdom which means Foregone has become an epic between September and now?