New album Foregone out February 2023

[Jester Slave]

Here's the definitive IF tier list, with the records being in rating order within their tier. Everyone is welcome.

Q&A for my Onlyfans supporters:

Why STYE ahead Clayman? I do believe that from an objective, academic musical theory standpoint Clayman is a better craft, but I enjoy STYE more. It's a worthy harbringer of what eventually be CC. Snappy, in your face, aggressive riffs, neat electronics and Anders' [studio] voice is still peaking. I'm an unapologetic industrial metal lover, and this is probably the closest IF will ever sound like industrial metal. A good example of this industrial chaos is the song Superhero.

Why is TJR in C tier and why is SC above it? The production sounds extremely dated and even though almost half of the record is amazing (before these scores get reduced by the production), the other half is very forgettable. And this is a RECORD tier list, not a best individual track tier list, nor a most influential records tier list. So if I am skipping 6 out of the 10 songs then I really can't rate it much higher. I am also counting the bonus tracks for SC as they are readily available on streaming, so I don't consider the barrier of entry too high to access those songs.

Is Colony that bad? Probably not, but I can hardly stomach it. The title track is great and the solo on Zombie Inc. is possibly the single best IF magic ever recorded, but the production is extremely bland (sounds good, but bland) and it feels like a much weaker version of the TJR formula: instead of 10/10 tracks we are getting some 7/10s, while half of the record is still forgettable. It may be unfair but I am also ignoring the Behind Space rerecording. It would bump up the record on the tier list, but to me it's not a Colony track. I didn't do the same with Dead Eternity, because it's still much closer to the TJR sessions than an LS track to Colony, plus it wouldn't really change TJR's rating either way.

Is ASOP that good? Probably not, but I have a soft spot for it. It was the first IF record released after I had already been a fan, and I was in love with Alias. For the longest time, before interacting with you, other fans, I thought Alias (and Reflect the Storm lol) were monstrous hits within the fanbase. Sure, Alias is liked, but we were all over the moon for it back then. I also like the guitar work on that record, some really neat riffs.

Don't you hate SOAPF? Well, if I am sentimental for ASOP for being the last "2nd phase" IF record, then I am the opposite of sentimental for SOAPF, which introduced this new alt-rock sound. On one hand, it is undoubtedly a well-constructed record with a bunch of good songs and a few fillers, but on the other hand it was my turn to be slapped in the face by them abandoning the sound, so suddenly I was owing an apology for the original fans who were complaing about R2R. I may be more favorable towards it if they returned to their (second) roots afterwards instead of doubling down with SC, but forefronting tier B is a pretty respectable position imo.

Do you hate Battles as much as LS? I don't hate it at all, but it is an extremely low-effort record. The only songs I can respect are The Truth and The End; almost everything else are just different, safe variations of the same exact song.

 

[The Grayfox]

Now that's controversial. I don't know that I've ever seen Colony that far down. It seems to be a unanimously loved album. Personally I think the second half suffers quite a bit, but I think the first half is so strong that I can overlook it.

I love how you basically interviewed yourself. You're really living up to the Narcissist moniker there

I think my list really changes too much to make a definitive list. I've done it a few times and I don't think it's ever been the same, other than what I consider the classic four albums being at the top. The rest can and will fluctuate regularly except for Siren Charms being dead last. Sometimes I really like Come Clarity but then I remember songs like Scream, Reflect the Storm (which when this album was announced, I was positive was going to be amazing based on the title...), Leeches, just these sub par (in my opinion) tracks that kind of drag the album down. But then there's the title track, Vacuum, Crawl Through Knives (twice, iykyk), Our Infinite Struggle and Vanishing Light which I consider to be the highlights. Versus Terminus is fine, as is Take This Life (although I am burnt out on it). Dead End and Pacing Death's Trail I could take or leave.

And in fact, I feel this way about most of IF's work post 2000. I can pick out songs that I really enjoy, but no album after Clayman can I say I enjoy all the way through. Even Battles I can find 1 or 2 songs that I enjoy on occasion. But for every Wallflower, there is an In My Room. And maybe this is the problem that I have with In Flames. In my mind, they turned into this band that became adept at writing filler. Sometimes it sounds like that's exactly what they're trying to do too. Obviously most bands have filler tracks, even if only a few (except Wintersun -- I can't say there's any filler there) but within the realm of bands I listen to, none have more than In Flames. I'm sure someone somewhere loves All The Pain, Dark Signs and The Puzzle but you're never convincing me those aren't filler tracks.

 

[eochaid]

And here we go again .

 

[DE4life]

I mean, Slave's tier list just looks completely random. Explanation which I skimmed over seems to boil down to 'it's my subjective opinion' which is fine, we all like what we like, but it's tough to make sense of it from an objective viewpoint.

 

[DE4life]

I mean, it's all subjective I suppose, so really, who gives a shit? I don't think it's pretentious to like any IF album. Unless you live in Brooklyn and swear up and down that the avant garde black metal jazz band that has 5 monthly Spotify listeners is "the best band you've ever heard", I think you're fine. When you hit that territory, we can start throwing the word "pretentious" around.

To me, Subterranean has better quality songs on it, even if it is an EP. Stand Ablaze and the title track especially I just think are really good MDM songs. Sure, Lunar Strain has a few good songs, I won't argue that, but the production and Mikael kill it for me. That weird throaty almost Louis Armstrong-singing-death metal thing that was really apparent in the early years is on full display here and I just don't like it. You hear it a lot when there's no post-processing or a record is badly mixed. I remember his voice sounded like shit on the Live Damage DVD too, at least to my ears.

I agree on your first paragraph. Lunar Strain is a fairly typical early MDM/DM record. If you're a fan of that era why wouldn't you like it? And you could easily rank it higher if you prefer classic early MDM to the commercial sound that evolved in the 2000s.

Vocals don't bother me that much on LS, although they aren't Mikael's best. Compared to vampire screeching about lost love and drinking blood wine or whatever on Sub I still prefer Stanne. I am not a huge fan of Forss' vocals in general though, so, it's personal preference to a degree.

 

[Jester Slave]

I agree on your first paragraph. Lunar Strain is a fairly typical early MDM/DM record. If you're a fan of that era why wouldn't you like it? And you could easily rank it higher if you prefer classic early MDM to the commercial sound that evolved in the 2000s.

Vocals don't bother me that much on LS, although they aren't Mikael's best. Compared to vampire screeching about lost love and drinking blood wine or whatever on Sub I still prefer Stanne. I am not a huge fan of Forss' vocals in general though, so, it's personal preference to a degree.

Because it's dogshit lol. And you can still put it in C tier while also liking it, otherwise it's not a tier list but a Steam review. LS is completely mediocre compared its contemporary mdm acts, it also fails spectacularly compared to TJR, and even its creators laugh about how it's basically a combination of a demo tape plus some hastily recorded songs. This is how I imagine people who put it above C:

I mean, Slave's tier list just looks completely random. Explanation which I skimmed over seems to boil down to 'it's my subjective opinion' which is fine, we all like what we like, but it's tough to make sense of it from an objective viewpoint.

How is that random lol? Their Whoracle - Come Clarity stretch of records are all in the S or A tiers with the exception of Colony, and ASOP is also being rated higher than by most, as it's the record which closed out the era of R2R-STYE-CC-ASOP, which is clearly close to my heart. SOAPF is rated relatively highly, while its watered down lil bro record, SC is a whole tier below it. It's mostly Colony which stands out, hence my special explanation about it.

 

[DE4life]

Having Whoracle as A tier and TJR as C tier is obviously random and bizarre. Also having TJR and SC on the same tier is pretty weird. Colony being in the tier it's in makes little sense even with your attempted explanation. Can't imagine anyone else would put Clayman in A tier and Colony in D tier. Wtf. Still, as I said, it's your opinion so you do you. The fact very few other IF fans would likely come anywhere close to the order you've chosen makes your selections random, in that they would be an extreme outlier. Only Phobiac might be a challenger.

I also find it strange that you were extremely unenthusiastic about Foregone, to the point of being worse than me or Eochaid at points, and yet it's B tier? Lol, okay then. It bored you when you first heard it, as evidenced on this thread, but now it's in their top eight albums of all time. Sure. Must have really, really grown on you. Even funnier considering how much you used to stan for SC, and yet Foregone is above it? Damn. Even Phobiac is cold on SC these days, so maybe me, Eochaid and A88 are owed an apology for the insults aimed at our direction in the past for supposedly not understanding the beauty and passion of SC.

 

[DE4life]

Now you better believe this is as real as real gets. Also the order inside the tier is irrelevant, they're just grouped by tier, not individually.

 

[Jester Slave]

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I can't say anything new about Colony. I tried, tried and tried, but could never get into it. Something is off with that production; it feels overwhelming and most of the songs ranging between forgettable and OK. I am not a fan of Clayman's production either, but almost every single song there feels like a different experience where every instrument get their breathing room, so you can enjoy them.

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier. Mind you, I added an extra tier to my list, so you can read them as S-superb/perfect, A-very good, B-good, C-average, D-bad, F-godawful. I had to put Foregone in a higher tier because it's more varied, sounds better and brought back some much needed edge to the band. Although it wasn't intentional, I think tier B's first and last pick represents two sides of a coin: SOAPF is mostly a safe and bland sounding record in which they clearly put a lot of effort into, while Foregone juggles many ideas but only manages to realize like half of them, and they refused to put the other half back in the oven.

 

[Jester Slave]

View attachment 36682

Now you better believe this is as real as real gets. Also the order inside the tier is irrelevant, they're just grouped by tier, not individually.

Put LS above C you coward

 

[DE4life]

Put LS above C you coward

Right after you do the same for SC :>

 

[eochaid]

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier.

Rejoice, because I put Foregone below SC. But, all of this discussion is about purely subjective matters. So it's not that important. It's like saying that TJR being Anders's favourite album, or Jesper's defense of ASOP have a different meaning that them just being appreciative of their own works because of pure subjective reasons.

 

[Jester Slave]

Wtf a fucking wasp just stung me. Put down your Slave voodo dolls, it's not funny!

As for the tier lists, of course it's subjective, but at least it's fun. If we dismissed everything like Spock would, then we would miss out on many of the joys life can offer. Wasps, in fact, do not belong to such joys.

 

[Xpyro125]

View attachment 36681
Here's the definitive IF tier list, with the records being in rating order within their tier. Everyone is welcome.

You know what, good shit, always nice to see someone who loves Whoracle and CC as much as I do.

Q&A for my Onlyfans supporters:

Why STYE ahead Clayman? I do believe that from an objective, academic musical theory standpoint Clayman is a better craft, but I enjoy STYE more. It's a worthy harbringer of what eventually be CC. Snappy, in your face, aggressive riffs, neat electronics and Anders' [studio] voice is still peaking. I'm an unapologetic industrial metal lover, and this is probably the closest IF will ever sound like industrial metal. A good example of this industrial chaos is the song Superhero.

Fair enough, simply enjoying something is all the reason you really need to place it high. I do like the mention of Superhero because it’s the one track I just don’t care for, saved for Bottled. I’m not sure that any of us like Bottled that much.

Why is TJR in C tier and why is SC above it? The production sounds extremely dated and even though almost half of the record is amazing (before these scores get reduced by the production), the other half is very forgettable. And this is a RECORD tier list, not a best individual track tier list, nor a most influential records tier list. So if I am skipping 6 out of the 10 songs then I really can't rate it much higher. I am also counting the bonus tracks for SC as they are readily available on streaming, so I don't consider the barrier of entry too high to access those songs.

Holy shit, they actually put Become the Sky on music services. If you didn’t say that I would’ve never known, since they haven’t had it for years. I’ve just been listening to a version I ripped from YouTube and uploaded to my iTunes files myself back in like 2016, so to finally have it available is so fucking nice.

But yeah, completely agreed with TJR though it’s just three tracks for me.

Having Whoracle as A tier and TJR as C tier is obviously random and bizarre. Also having TJR and SC on the same tier is pretty weird. Colony being in the tier it's in makes little sense even with your attempted explanation. Can't imagine anyone else would put Clayman in A tier and Colony in D tier. Wtf. Still, as I said, it's your opinion so you do you. The fact very few other IF fans would likely come anywhere close to the order you've chosen makes your selections random, in that they would be an extreme outlier. Only Phobiac might be a challenger.

In fairness to him, my list shares a surprising amount of similarity to his in that regard— Not the Colony in D tier part, that one’s an opinion I’ll never have.
Edit: this is supposed to quote de4life, but the formatting has decided to fucking melt itself once again. Goddamn it.

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

If I could’ve liked this message multiple times, I would’ve. I love the folky and melodic nature of TJR, but the sheer groove of Whoracle is so fucking good, and it’s almost a precursor in CC in some ways. I personally love every song on here, with the only sour moment being Gyroscope’s chorus due to the backing vocals there. I’ve mentioned it a few times now. While I don’t think anything will ever top CC for me, there are times when I enjoy Whoracle more than SoaPF, at least if I’m in the mood for it.

 

[eochaid]

You know what, good shit, always nice to see someone who loves Whoracle and CC as much as I do.

CC is, probably, my favourite IF album.

 

[DE4life]

To me, Whoracle is what TJR is for many of you. TJR's production is godawful to me, Whoracle is crisp. TJR's guitars (and most of the record) sounds very folky and I much prefer Whoracle's straight-up metal sound and songwriting, even if comes at the cost of melodies. Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I genuinely think you're the only person I've come across who has such a massive issue with TJR's production. Like, enough to knock it down multiple tiers. I never see this opinion anywhere else. Personally I think TJR's production is spot on for the folky, melancholic, dystopian vibe the album is going for. I don't really understand the Whoracle comment either. It's generally accepted that Whoracle's production isn't the best - even Jesper has admitted that. It's kind of thick rather than crisp, although again it doesn't bother me enough to knock it down any tiers. I'm fine with both albums how they are.

Lunar Strain I can understand knocking down a tier or two for production. TJR though? I don't really see the logic, considering it's an issue very few people have ever expressed about the album, whereas many people note that Lunar's production is poor. I'm also curious as to how Reroute, which I love but has one of the worst IF mixes ever, gets into S tier with production seemingly completely ignored, whilst TJR gets obliterated for it.

Anders starts to find his niche and for the first time ever comes alive, unlike on TJR where he's still doing mdm growls 101 in which he isn't really anything special. It's also a much tighter record where I wouldn't necessarily skip any songs, even if I am not particularly swoon by The Hive and Dialogue.

I agree that there's a slight improvement on Whoracle compared to TJR, but no way has he found his niche at that point. He still has zero technique, as any live shows from around the time Whoracle was recorded will attest to. It was only really in 1998 and starting in studio on Colony that he found the voice people would truly recognise him for (unique higher pitched scream/rasp). Whoracle he's still trying to be "Swedish death metal vocalist", on Colony he's really becoming Anders as most would know him going forward.

I am not a fan of Clayman's production either, but almost every single song there feels like a different experience where every instrument get their breathing room, so you can enjoy them.

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production, but okay. From memory I think you're more into Static-X (RIP dude with crazy hair), NIN, etc than metal, so maybe that's understandable.

In terms of every instrument having breathing room... in some ways, yeah, but Clayman is ultimately a guitar-led and driven album in every respect. Bass plays no real part in dictating the pace or direction of the music, and the vocals have no influence musically at all. It's just layered over the top, essentially. Drumming on Clayman is cool, though, I will give ye that - and Daniel sounds great on that record. He did Leinad proud.

SC topping tier C is pretty decent, considering most of you would put it in the very last tier.

It would be pretty decent for us, maybe, who have heavily criticised it. Not for you, who has staunchly defended it. I seriously can't believe you went from this in September:

Anyhow, Forgeone pt. 1 sounds like an actual song, and not just a catchy chorus or one good riff. If the whole record had that kind of songmaking I think it could've been really good, but instead most of the tracks lack imagination.

And say what you will about SC but those were at least properly done songs from start to finish. Maybe you guys don't like the mixing of it, or more understandably, the complete lack of urgency in the tracks, but at least most of them are complete songs, and not "that chorus" or "that riff".

To now putting Foregone AHEAD of SC in your rankings, lmao. Album with no imagination or complete songs is now B tier. Bro, what is going on? How did an album full of "that chorus" or "that riff" become better than basically half of the band's entire discography to you? Do you think IF have just had quite a shitty career generally, or have you discovered some hidden wisdom which means Foregone has become an epic between September and now?

 

[DE4life]

Wtf a fucking wasp just stung me. Put down your Slave voodo dolls, it's not funny!

As for the tier lists, of course it's subjective, but at least it's fun. If we dismissed everything like Spock would, then we would miss out on many of the joys life can offer. Wasps, in fact, do not belong to such joys.

But yes, Slave is one of the few people I can be very blunt with as I know he can take it and dish it back out. It's tiring to have to spend majority of my day sanitising my thoughts out of fear of offending somebody, even if they've done or said something extremely stupid.

 

[DE4life]

I’m not sure that any of us like Bottled that much.

Oh, my boy. If there's one thing I've learned from this long, weary life, it's that there is ALWAYS someone who will act the contrarian. Even in the place of something being utterly and objectively appalling and pathetic, there will always be one who says "actually I like it, you guys just aren't getting it". Every time. In fact it's so predictable that it's become boring. There's gonna be someone out there saying "Oh my god guys, you know, Battles is SO underrated!! People just don't get it!"

Slave will no doubt steam in and say "people can have other opinions ya know, hive mind, hurr durr", but it's nothing to do with that. Some things are just shit, and it's OK to say "I know it's shit, but I like it", rather than trying to convince everyone something is actually amazing when it clearly and obviously is not.

In fairness to him, my list shares a surprising amount of similarity to his in that regard— Not the Colony in D tier part, that one’s an opinion I’ll never have.
Edit: this is supposed to quote de4life, but the formatting has decided to fucking melt itself once again. Goddamn it.

I would say your tier list makes a lot more logical sense. Colony and Clayman are within a tier of each other. 1994 - 2000 albums all within the first three tiers. STYE and Reroute, the controversial post-2000 albums, in the middle. SC, Foregone, ASOP and Battles, generally considered the worst IF albums by many, at the bottom.

 

[Xpyro125]

I genuinely think you're the only person I've come across who has such a massive issue with TJR's production. Like, enough to knock it down multiple tiers. I never see this opinion anywhere else. Personally I think TJR's production is spot on for the folky, melancholic, dystopian vibe the album is going for. I don't really understand the Whoracle comment either. It's generally accepted that Whoracle's production isn't the best - even Jesper has admitted that. It's kind of thick rather than crisp, although again it doesn't bother me enough to knock it down any tiers. I'm fine with both albums how they are.

I’m not super huge on the drum sound in TJR, and it’s a bit improved in Whoracle, though both have it a bit too quiet for me imo. Bass is tough to hear in TJR, it’s just barely fine in Whoracle. I’m not huge on the guitar tone of TJR normally, but I think it actually works for the album. None of that hampers my enjoyment of either album much.

Lunar Strain I can understand knocking down a tier or two for production. TJR though? I don't really see the logic, considering it's an issue very few people have ever expressed about the album, whereas many people note that Lunar's production is poor. I'm also curious as to how Reroute, which I love but has one of the worst IF mixes ever, gets into S tier with production seemingly completely ignored, whilst TJR gets obliterated for it.

Reroute is completely crippled with compression, arguably even worse than CC is (Though that works for CC), but I do like its mix. RTR-CC is the golden age for hearing the bass loud and clear, and the thick tone with the five string is beautiful for that. I’d say the audio fidelity is heavily compromised by the production and mixing, but the fact that everything’s clear is great.

I agree that there's a slight improvement on Whoracle compared to TJR, but no way has he found his niche at that point. He still has zero technique, as any live shows from around the time Whoracle was recorded will attest to. It was only really in 1998 and starting in studio on Colony that he found the voice people would truly recognise him for (unique higher pitched scream/rasp). Whoracle he's still trying to be "Swedish death metal vocalist", on Colony he's really becoming Anders as most would know him going forward.

I don’t think technique necessarily means good. Sustainable? Yes, and that is good, but I’ll take even waning, cracking Clayman Anders over Foregone Anders any day. Anders’ vocals may be objectively bad, even in the classic era, but there was so much fucking emotion carried in his vocals that I love. It’s something you just don’t get anymore, so I’ll always be happier with bad Anders than good Anders.

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production, but okay. From memory I think you're more into Static-X (RIP dude with crazy hair), NIN, etc than metal, so maybe that's understandable.

In terms of every instrument having breathing room... in some ways, yeah, but Clayman is ultimately a guitar-led and driven album in every respect. Bass plays no real part in dictating the pace or direction of the music, and the vocals have no influence musically at all. It's just layered over the top, essentially. Drumming on Clayman is cool, though, I will give ye that - and Daniel sounds great on that record. He did Leinad proud.

I’m with the majority on this one, Clayman has some of the best production I’ve heard. It’s a bit compressed, but the fact that everything’s clear without it hurting the audio fidelity much is nothing short of masterful.

Oh, my boy. If there's one thing I've learned from this long, weary life, it's that there is ALWAYS someone who will act the contrarian. Even in the place of something being utterly and objectively appalling and pathetic, there will always be one who says "actually I like it, you guys just aren't getting it". Every time. In fact it's so predictable that it's become boring. There's gonna be someone out there saying "Oh my god guys, you know, Battles is SO underrated!! People just don't get it!"

I mean, yeah, there are a lot of horribly deluded people who love Battles. Going into comments sections on Battles videos, its singles, and even on a fucking subreddit or some shit will have those people. Even on a STYE video, I’ve never seen anyone defend Bottled. It’s just on videos specifically of Bottled, which of course, the only other things you can say are “I love this album” and “I love this band”. It’s just what’s gonna happen there, but absolutely nowhere else.

And I hope I’m never wrong on this.

I would say your tier list makes a lot more logical sense. Colony and Clayman are within a tier of each other. 1994 - 2000 albums all within the first three tiers. STYE and Reroute, the controversial post-2000 albums, in the middle. SC, Foregone, ASOP and Battles, generally considered the worst IF albums by many, at the bottom.

I guess that’s fair enough, I didn’t really think about it that way since I didn’t give any explanations for my reasoning.

 

[eochaid]

Not sure how somebody who likes metal can dislike Clayman's production

That's one of the best mixes that I've ever listened to in metal. The first time that I've listened to it it blew up my mind.