Hmm, some interesting points.
Cythraul said:
I'd rather listen to a band that delves into concepts and subject matter outside of ephemeral anti-christian rhetoric. If you like music that reflects and espouses lyrically banal "christ-hating" babble then go right on ahead.
I disagree that Immolation's thematic concept is 'banal'. The lyrics are often metaphorical in a Miltonian sense, treating Satanic themes as allegory for the individual's struggle against overwhelming odds. 'Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.' For example in 'Rival the Eminent' we have,
"I'll be my own leader
I'll be my own saviour
I'll be the strength that carries
I'll be the light that guides...me"
You can also draw parallels to the Nietzschean Superman in the song's advocating of 'will to power'.
Cythraul said:
Good music is soundly structured. It not only applies to the overall structure but to the melodic content as well. I'm not interested in how "evil" a riff sounds or how well a piece of music reflects someones narrow worldview. I care about well constructed melodies
We differ in techniques of musical appreciation. In my opinion music is art and hence should be understood aesthetically. In regards to Immolation, I find their union of aesthetic and concept to be extremely effective. You seem to advocate a more scientific, dry approach whereby music can be graded solely in accordance to how well it employs a pre-constructed codex of harmonic / melodic technique.
Obviously, a wider understanding of theory can enhance musical expression, however in my view it ultimately lives or dies in accordance to how well it functions as art. Hence, for me, Celtic Frost and Beethoven are great, whereas J.S. Bach and Jazz music are awful; the former expressing profundity artistically with the latter barley being art at all, more an exercise in the science of harmony perfected to an unsurpassed level.
That said, if you are saying that Immolation's aesthetic is damaged by limited cadential awareness, I have to disagree. There's a powerful narrative structure to all of their songs - strong examples being the title track to CTAWB - which carries mood through several, flowing passages - and the opening track from Here in After, 'Nailed To Gold' which contains a solo offering strong melodic development.
In regards to Ulver, they seem like smart guys. However, for me, they always had the air of a certain self-willed eccentricity and 'emperor's-new-clothes' elitism which I find a bit distasteful and unpleasant. Their music smacks of novelty and/or a plastic aping of foundational bands in whichever genre they are straying into currently.
To briefly comment on another point, I'll say that whereas all good 'music' must be structured, this does not hold true for sonic art.
Cythraul said:
Why would I listen to Immolation for the reasons you provided when I can just listen to Penderecki?
With respect, I think this is somewhat of a straw-man argument. I don't think anyone here is suggesting Immolation display as advanced a level of musical composition as Penderecki. If you'll forgive me turning your argument around for a moment: are you suggesting that Ulver do? If so, why even listen to Metal music at all and further, why ever listen to anything other than J.S. Bach?
In my opinion it's unfair to compare Metal music directly to classical music because its method of operation is not intended to be the same.
Cythraul said:
If you'd like to argue music theory with me then try, you'll fail.
I'm not a big fan of this kind of elitism. There is so much to learn and know that wasting time with chest-thumping self-aggrandisement isn't that productive for anything other than stoking egos in strange message-board scenes.
