New Opeth from a long time fan.

[Xilbalba]

Alright, just so I can somewhat proclaim validity in my analysis, I've been an Opeth fan since Morningrise, seen them live twice, blah blah blah.

When I first heard Morningrise, I thought it was so incredible. The way they layered everything, to sheer complexity of each movement in each song, and the way everything was orchestrated, I couldn't believe it, and still can't.

My Arms...When this album came out, I found it to be more "rock" oriented. Fatter sounding bar chords were being used, and his vocals were top notch. All acoustic interludes possessed the same inter-weaving complexity as in morning, and his clean vocals were simply brillant. I don't like this album as much as Still Life or Morningrise, but it is good if i'm in a very raw, "metal" mood.

Still life changed my life. Literally. My entire percpetion on music changed when this masterpiece came out. The moor just blows me away, and I guess from tracks 1-7 there isn't a second I don't enjoy. I felt that this album was the perfected My Arms. Fat chords and jazzy sounds are being used, but also the beautiful complexity and musicianship on Morningrise was there as well. One of Opeth's best in my opinion.


Blackwater Park was interesting. I found that their new production techniques were somewhat bland - almost too perfect? Too many grey and white tones in the album - very bleak. Or wintery. I like it - and I do listen to it once in a while, but not with the same excitement that I still do Morningrise or Still Life. I just find it to be boring at times. Or formulated, and one dimensional. This time, I could really tell one guy wrote the whole album. It just had that one theme, and it was constantly pounded upon song after song.

Deliverence. I don't even think I'm going to buy it. And I hate to say that - and maybe I should, I'm still not sure, but shit, I'm just totally not impressed. At all. I find it boring, and bland, and just not innovative at all. Their production techniques I feel take away from the atmosphere 'naturally' inherent in Opeth's music, and I think that their lack of 'complexity' just takes away. It's lost it's depth. It's too straightforward. I hear everything too quickly. It doesn't give me time to explore. I don't know. I can see how some 'new' fans would like this album, and I think it's great to support such talented musicians, but shit. As a long time Opeth fan, I listen to it in disapointment.


They really really have to stop beating the shit out of the same riff for 30 measures. It's become homogonized, and predictable. So disapointing.

Am I missing the boat here or?

 

[CladInDarkness]

not at all, but you will be flamed by all the fan boys because you're depressing them, by "bashing" their beloved Opeth. As with you Still Life and Morningrise are tied as my fave opeth albums. I found Deliverance to be a dissapointment too, still a decent album though, it has some bright spots. Overall though I didn't like it. I'll definently still get the album, but my money is going first to see Trans Siberian Orchestra.

 

[Parasite]

Though I don't agree with it, it's understood. I love Deliverance, but i DO understand your dissapointment.

Anyone who flames him is an idiot. He brought his argument intelligently, I hope the rest of you can too.

 

[pac1288]

Originally posted by Xilbalba
Alright, just so I can somewhat proclaim validity in my analysis, I've been an Opeth fan since Morningrise, seen them live twice, blah blah blah.

When I first heard Morningrise, I thought it was so incredible. The way they layered everything, to sheer complexity of each movement in each song, and the way everything was orchestrated, I couldn't believe it, and still can't.

My Arms...When this album came out, I found it to be more "rock" oriented. Fatter sounding bar chords were being used, and his vocals were top notch. All acoustic interludes possessed the same inter-weaving complexity as in morning, and his clean vocals were simply brillant. I don't like this album as much as Still Life or Morningrise, but it is good if i'm in a very raw, "metal" mood.

Still life changed my life. Literally. My entire percpetion on music changed when this masterpiece came out. The moor just blows me away, and I guess from tracks 1-7 there isn't a second I don't enjoy. I felt that this album was the perfected My Arms. Fat chords and jazzy sounds are being used, but also the beautiful complexity and musicianship on Morningrise was there as well. One of Opeth's best in my opinion.


Blackwater Park was interesting. I found that their new production techniques were somewhat bland - almost too perfect? Too many grey and white tones in the album - very bleak. Or wintery. I like it - and I do listen to it once in a while, but not with the same excitement that I still do Morningrise or Still Life. I just find it to be boring at times. Or formulated, and one dimensional. This time, I could really tell one guy wrote the whole album. It just had that one theme, and it was constantly pounded upon song after song.

Deliverence. I don't even think I'm going to buy it. And I hate to say that - and maybe I should, I'm still not sure, but shit, I'm just totally not impressed. At all. I find it boring, and bland, and just not innovative at all. Their production techniques I feel take away from the atmosphere 'naturally' inherent in Opeth's music, and I think that their lack of 'complexity' just takes away. It's lost it's depth. It's too straightforward. I hear everything too quickly. It doesn't give me time to explore. I don't know. I can see how some 'new' fans would like this album, and I think it's great to support such talented musicians, but shit. As a long time Opeth fan, I listen to it in disapointment.


They really really have to stop beating the shit out of the same riff for 30 measures. It's become homogonized, and predictable. So disapointing.

Am I missing the boat here or?

This is a perfect example on how somebody should express there feeling in regards to something that they don't like or find un-appealing to an extent.

This type of post is impressive and full of maturity, intwined with intelligence and consideration and respect for what this forum stands for-Opeth.

Originally posted by CladInDarkness

not at all, but you will be flamed by all the fan boys because you're depressing them, by "bashing" their beloved Opeth.

This type of comment will surely provoke a dispute, this is where posters that are disapointed with something, or that are not really in favor of a particular album will get flamed simply for the choice of words. I highly doubt anybody will bash the original thread starter, simply because he came across with honesty, maturity, and just plain common-sense, and also he does not have a reputation for constantly flaming fans of Opeth for being open about there sentiments.

The piont here is that the original post is highly respectable, the second one is the complete opposite, and has a high possibilty of triggering some negative reactions.

 

[Cynical Bastard]

I agree that the original post is well written and thoughtful, and I agree with his/her views for the most part, although I do like Blackwater Park alot as an album. Still though, I 've seen others make intelligent criticism before and people have jumped on them or made comments like "oh not another negative post." I think the only reason you didn't put him down or call him a whiner was because of his asskissing (although justified) of other albums. If he just posted the comments about deliverance, things would be seen much differently. Although I do think Mikael and company are excellent musicians and good songwriters, someone shouldn't have to praise them beforehand just to make a criticism of their latest work.

 

[Xilbalba]

I was actually using the previous albums to emphasize what was good about "old" opeth in comparision to "new" opeth.

I was trying to highlight certain elements that I thought were original and thought-provoking.

Asskissing maybe - but I'll asskiss those albums till the day I die. They're fucking brillant.


I still stand beside my feelings on Blackwater and Deliverance though.


Maybe I will buy Deliverance, see if the whole package deal changes my perception on the album and the mood Opeth is trying to convey. But it's funny how I first got into early opeth off mp3's sent to me by my friend, without experiencing the actual cd's that I spent a tonne of money on 6 months after that.

mmmm

 

[inferenzum]

As I type this, I'm giving Deliverance the obligatory "play and play again til you find something that justifies the 17 bucks you just spent on the thing" treatment.

I, too, have been an avid fan since Morningrise. And I'm afraid what I feared when I heard BWP the first time, has come true. With 'Deliverance,' Opeth evolves past the awe-inspiring complexity of a musical style that seems to be larger than the cosmos.. and into a kind of musical limbo where the music drifts without much direction amidst shadows of what they've already done.

It's not that I dislike the music. It's far better than anything Glen Benton could ever conjure up in his most artistic wet-dream, and I still listen to Deicide. I think what I, and maybe other people, miss about newer Opeth music isn't something that's technically explicable. I think what I miss is putting a CD into the player and hearing an absolutely astounding display of music I hadn't ever imagined was possible before. I miss being blown away, not just by the technical expertise and musicianship in Opeth, but by completely unique sound and style.

Oh look. Track 6 already, and i'm not even bobbing my head yet.

 

[Cynical Bastard]

Originally posted by Xilbalba
I was actually using the previous albums to emphasize what was good about "old" opeth in comparision to "new" opeth.

I was trying to highlight certain elements that I thought were original and thought-provoking.

Asskissing maybe - but I'll asskiss those albums till the day I die. They're fucking brillant.


I still stand beside my feelings on Blackwater and Deliverance though.

Yes, I understand the points you were making and I'd agree; I wasn't putting down your asskissing because I do it myself with those albums. I was just making the point that someone should be able to criticise something honestly and intelligently, even yes bluntly, without praising their previous work or worrying about offending someone who has fallen in love it.

 

[StillLife]

I don't agree with everything you said...but still its your opinion...i love every opeth album, but i'm a relatively new fan(and only 14). Since about May I've been a fan, and i love every minute i listen to them

 

[Xilbalba]

Originally posted by inferenzum
As I type this, I'm giving Deliverance the obligatory "play and play again til you find something that justifies the 17 bucks you just spent on the thing" treatment.

I, too, have been an avid fan since Morningrise. And I'm afraid what I feared when I heard BWP the first time, has come true. With 'Deliverance,' Opeth evolves past the awe-inspiring complexity of a musical style that seems to be larger than the cosmos.. and into a kind of musical limbo where the music drifts without much direction amidst shadows of what they've already done.

It's not that I dislike the music. It's far better than anything Glen Benton could ever conjure up in his most artistic wet-dream, and I still listen to Deicide. I think what I, and maybe other people, miss about newer Opeth music isn't something that's technically explicable. I think what I miss is putting a CD into the player and hearing an absolutely astounding display of music I hadn't ever imagined was possible before. I miss being blown away, not just by the technical expertise and musicianship in Opeth, but by completely unique sound and style.

Oh look. Track 6 already, and i'm not even bobbing my head yet.

Exactly

 

[pac1288]

Originally posted by Cynical Bastard
Still though, I 've seen others make intelligent criticism before and people have jumped on them or made comments like "oh not another negative post."

Yes, but this also highly depends on the reputation of the the person making the negative comment. If its someone that regularly bashes Opeth fans for un-logical reasons, then this is often the contributing facter in causing negative reactions from the fans. You know, if people get bashed enough they get aggravated and loose there tolerance.

You see it takes common-sense to understand this issue, for some its sort of on the complex side of the spectrum for others that have a decent form of logic will understand this rather quickly.

It does not matter how much you try to reinforce your views on this, what it all boils down to is that we are on the Opeth forum, and if you find it difficult to respect the fans then you have to consider the band, this is what it will always narrow down to, and if discussions that advocate Opeth wether its a low extent or high one bother you so much then I guess this particular discussion board isn't the place for you, I don't know if some you understand this but if you have some form of intellect you you probably will.

I have said this before and I will say it again: I'm not obsessed with the band in any shape or form, but immaturity will always bother me regardless of the subject, this is the way I am with anything.

The reason for me for not flaming the guy is not because he was favoring Opeth's previous works, if it had been based solely on Deliverance I would have responded the same exact way as I did on my first post of this thread.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

This sort of reaction has been common from just about everyone, I haven't really found anyone yet who hasn't had it grow on them..or who liked it to begin with.

All I can offer is give it time..but don't force it on you. I tried to that with BWP and it just made things worse. If you genuinely don't like it after giving it a reasonable amount of time, then at least you can give your opinions after assessing the album for a respectable time.

I have to agree with inferenzum's point that it isn't really a headbanging record, I didn't really notice this till I read his post..but I do rarely get overly excited whilst listening to it. Apart from maybe the self-titled track..

 

[Cynical Bastard]

Originally posted by pac1288


Yes, but this also highly depends on the reputation of the the person making the negative comment. If its someone that regularly bashes Opeth fans for un-logical reasons, then this is often the contributing facter in causing negative reactions from the fans. You know, if people get bashed enough they get aggravated and loose there tolerance.

You see it takes common-sense to understand this issue, for some its sort of on the complex side of the spectrum for others that have a decent form of logic will understand this rather quickly.

It does not matter how much you try to reinforce your views on this, what it all boils down to is that we are on the Opeth forum, and if you find it difficult to respect the fans then you have to consider the band, this is what it will always narrow down to, and if discussions that advocate Opeth wether its a low extent or high one bother you so much then I guess this particular discussion board isn't the place for you, I don't know if some you understand this but if you have some form of intellect you you probably will.

I have said this before and I will say it again: I'm not obsessed with the band in any shape or form, but immaturity will always bother me regardless of the subject, this is the way I am with anything.

The reason for me for not flaming the guy is not because he was favoring Opeth's previous works, if it had been based solely on Deliverance I would have responded the same exact way as I did on my first post of this thread.

I understand that people with a reputation for bashing a band are going to be looked at differently in what they post. However, you should be mature enough to recognize this and brush it off as what it is, rather than making a big fuss about someone disrespecting the band. That's just going to instigate an argument and waste everyone's time. I too am a big fan of Opeth and I really dislike the way you're talking down to others, assumingly myself as well. I don't try to reinforce my views on anyone and I don't appreciate someone implying this isn't the place for me to share my opinions about my favorite band.

 

[Xilbalba]

as posts usually do, this one got way off topic.

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Xilbalba


When I first heard Morningrise, I thought it was so incredible. The way they layered everything, to sheer complexity of each movement in each song, and the way everything was orchestrated, I couldn't believe it, and still can't.

But if they recreated this album, or the song structure from this album, wouldn't we say 'Well, its unoriginal because its too much like Morningrise.' What I'm trying to say is...how can you top a masterpiece...If thats what Morningrise is. Maybe we built the hype around Deliverance up too much. Basically, Opeth have created their own problem, in that they released two IMO near perfect albums (for the times), in Orchid and Morningrise, so how do you top that? You can't...you can hope to come on par...or create something as good...but how do you beat that? How do you sate the fans? Thats why the only way to play, is the way Mikael play's, if he's telling the truth when saying 'I only write for myself, and don't really give a fuck about anyone else, including the fans.' thats the only way to be if you don't want to go insane I think.

Bottom line is...if you don't like the album, don't buy it. Don't feel betrayed by Deliverance. Opeth gave to me in one album more than most bands could give to me in their whole careers. $30 AU$ is a small price to pay for this.

In case anyone cares, I've been into Opeth since Orchid came out...and I for one am glad they've gone in the direction they've gone. Because if they always tried to do what they did in Morningrise, then we'd all probably be bored of that whole thing, or start picking holes in it till there's nothing left, when really it should hold a place in the anals of metal masterpieces....gush.

sorry about the rant...thanks for reading.

 

[Cutter]

sorry for being anal, but did I spell anals correctly ?

 

[Static]

Just something I want to point out.

I don't understand the common way people have of looking at Opeth albums, that is, to compare them to each other in order to see which one is best. I am NOT accusing anyone of doing this, sure...you may not like Deliverance based on its own merits and all, its just it happens a lot round here and I think it is wrong.

Each one should be judged as a seperate entity, a new experience, and although it is difficult, judged solely based on what the music is like. For example...when I first heard Opeth it was BWP...the album which probably gets the most criticism round here (possibly excluding Deliverance), and when I heard it for the first time I was like WOW!! It was an amazing experience... Without having any knowledge of any other Opeth albums it was judged on its own merits and I thought it was spectacular.

However I was even more impressed by the other albums, and came to a conclusion they were better albums. However...was BWP any less an awesome album than when I first listened to it? No...its just hearing the others made me think it wasn't as good as I first expected. Hearing the others changed my opinion of BWP into making me think it was a lesser work. After time I slowly re-learned why I had loved BWP in the first place without letting the other albums get in my way...and soon BWP was possibly my favourite album.

It happens to everyone I think, but when you learn to judge each album solely on its own attributes, thats when you'll learn the beauty of both BWP and Deliverance. Unless of course...you just plain don't like it in an un-biased way...which is cool.

 

[IanDork107]

I think Opeth continually gets better. I won't flame anyone for disagreeing, but I think it sucks that the music doesn't do for all fans what it does for me. If loving the music that much makes me a fanboy, so be it.

 

[YourFuneral]

Originally posted by Static
Each one should be judged as a seperate entity, a new experience, and although it is difficult, judged solely based on what the music is like. For example...when I first heard Opeth it was BWP...the album which probably gets the most criticism round here (possibly excluding Deliverance), and when I heard it for the first time I was like WOW!! It was an amazing experience... Without having any knowledge of any other Opeth albums it was judged on its own merits and I thought it was spectacular.

However I was even more impressed by the other albums, and came to a conclusion they were better albums. However...was BWP any less an awesome album than when I first listened to it? No...its just hearing the others made me think it wasn't as good as I first expected. Hearing the others changed my opinion of BWP into making me think it was a lesser work. After time I slowly re-learned why I had loved BWP in the first place without letting the other albums get in my way...and soon BWP was possibly my favourite album.

Same here... I love BWP as it was the first Opeth album I heard (not the first time I heard Opeth - that was in concert) but I went on from there and got the other albums and found that Still Life is my absolute favorite because, to me, it's the most perfect example of what Opeth is, though BWP still gets the most listens... (If that makes sense...)

It happens to everyone I think, but when you learn to judge each album solely on its own attributes, thats when you'll learn the beauty of both BWP and Deliverance. Unless of course...you just plain don't like it in an un-biased way...which is cool.

Exactly... Ultimately, it's what you like that matters, not what other's like... For the most part, I've always avoided threads like this (for Opeth and other bands) because I want an bias-free listen... (As bias-free as possible, at least...) Unsurprisingly, this is exactly what attracts me to progressive types of music as I can fully expect each album to be different... It's when the albums are NOT different, that I'm disappointed... heh heh...

Frankly, I'm glad that Opeth has changed over the years because I don't particularly care for Morningrise and would not be into Opeth at all if they still had that sound... (Granted, this is mainly for production reasons, I'm fairly sure...) Just my opinion... No flames, please, ...

EDIT: On reflection (and yet another listen ), I guess I really don't mind the Morningrise sound, after all... HAHA! But, I still like the more recent sounds better...

 

[Cutter]

Originally posted by Hearse
Strange that you feel in that way, since you like the older stuff.
I'm fanatic fan of Orchid and Morningrise. I love all the Opeth albums as well, but these two masterpieces attains so much in them. Like Orchid, I honestly think its the best Debut album evermade, its simply perfect in one word. I've listened those two albums over 2000 times. So that tells I listen Opeth alot. Now we get to the point. After I've heard Deliverance only 5-10 times. I can already say Deliverance is in top 3 of opeth albums, right after those unbeatable Orchid & Morningrise. So its very strange you feel dissapointed.

You definitely have to give Deliverance more listens, especially when you love Opeth.

true true...thats what I plan to do...but remember one thing. You can convince yourself anything is great if you keep subjecting yourself to it...but I guess thats all that really matters. If YOU ilke it.