Nightingale-White Darkness Lyrical waste
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Kenneth R.
Cináed
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
BloodSword
Member
I must say, in 3 paragraphs you pretty much summed it up. God is NOT; a certain denomination in a church, not what some horrid TV evangelist wants you to believe, and certainly God is not FORCING people to accept and believe. This is all an excercise in self- realization and evaluation of one's internal self(soul). God wants YOU to decide, you to make the decision and you to come of your own "FREE WILL" to him/her/divine entity. That realization is not complicated, however, to abide, to open the door when Jesus knocks, and accept the challenge he portrays to you is where inner strenght, courage of conviction occur and take root. This may sound like a simplification to some, so be it, but I assure all of you, an internal voice will knock at some point in your lives regardless of your lot in this life and YOU WILL make the most important decision you will ever make. "Death not Ends it."
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
guess there are some things i can agree to in your post...then there are stuff like God wants you to decide thing and the free will which i strongly disagree but whatever floats your boat
Kenneth R.
Cináed
mleijzer
Guitarfreak
I think it's not about God wanting you to do something, more about God giving you the opportunity to do something.
It's up to you to decide what to do.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
I don't know how you can believe in karma and deny free will
I understand your point...but it's a matter of deffinition
I relate to Karma as the universe's strive for ballance...on all scales, whether it's a person, a nation, a race(the human race as opposed to living beings from other planets). good and bad are relative terms...one thing can be good for me and bad for someone else...despite us as humans having some common moral ground.
now as I stated earlier I believe all options(or trajectories) coexist simultaniously so randomality and free will do not exist on the broad universe as it contains all possible and impossible options.
if you look at one trajectory only then you do have the illusion of both randomality and free will.surely the ballance works in all trajectories individually and in the broad universe between trajectories.
to make it more understanble i'll use a simple metaphore
a man comes to a place where he can either turn left or right
he chooses to turn right randomly...his parallel self chooses to turn left randomly. now if you look at it from a broader point of view one is compelled to turn one way because the the other one takes the other way to unknowingly maintain the ballance.but because they coexist simultanously and not aware of each other the also affect each other rather than one makes a random choice and the other makes the complement move because he has no choice. thus the illusion of choice is maintained.
now suppose the first self wants to be fresh and chooses the left turn when he was supposed to go right. the other self is compelled to go right and on the broader sense all that has changed is the order of trajectories which doesn't seem to have any meaning is the broader universe just as when you need to make a choice, the order of choices in your head doesn't matter.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
That's inconsistent though. First, I still disagree that good and bad are relative, but that's another topic.
Karma demands that we be responsible for our actions, and our actions (according to you, even in past lives!) must have consequences. How can we be responsible for our choices when you claim that our choices don't matter? (That there is no free will.) Free will is a necessary component of the idea of karma because without it, all the suffering, reward and consequence we face are unjustified since without free will, we are not responsible for our choices!
Note also that the concept of determinism is not incompatible with free will. It sounds like you are arguing for determinism, but rule out free will. That is one position many philosophers have, but you can't have that position and support the idea of karma.
Karma demands that we be responsible for our actions, and our actions (according to you, even in past lives!) must have consequences. How can we be responsible for our choices when you claim that our choices don't matter? (That there is no free will.) Free will is a necessary component of the idea of karma because without it, all the suffering, reward and consequence we face are unjustified since without free will, we are not responsible for our choices!
Note also that the concept of determinism is not incompatible with free will. It sounds like you are arguing for determinism, but rule out free will. That is one position many philosophers have, but you can't have that position and support the idea of karma.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
I didn't say we are responsible... logically if we don't have free will, we can't be responsible for our choices.
again I defined Karma as the ballance and as for the you reap what you sow deffinition...since you don't have free will nor choice you're not responsible for neither what you reap nor what you sow.now since you have the illusion of free will and randomality, consequently you have the illusion of resposnibilty within a single trajectory.
I'm indeed arguing for determinism...and I understand completely what you mean but both determinism and karma are based on the same principal of cause and effect.Once you define karma without free will as I did...then Karma and Determinism are virtually the same thing.
again I defined Karma as the ballance and as for the you reap what you sow deffinition...since you don't have free will nor choice you're not responsible for neither what you reap nor what you sow.now since you have the illusion of free will and randomality, consequently you have the illusion of resposnibilty within a single trajectory.
I'm indeed arguing for determinism...and I understand completely what you mean but both determinism and karma are based on the same principal of cause and effect.Once you define karma without free will as I did...then Karma and Determinism are virtually the same thing.
BloodSword
Member
I could be missing something here, but, Paradoxile didn't you just excercise "free will" in your choice to repond to Kenneth? Or in any choices of posts you've made? Isn't that a true definition of free will. I respect all views( for keeping an open ear and eye is the only way to learn) but, this thread is becoming downtrodden with complication. I will now excercise my free will to log off this site, and return at another time, to be more stimulated by this conversation.Peace.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
philosophy is complicated...that's just something you'll have to deal with
and to your question Bloodsword, I both responded and didn't respond to Ken.
In a parallel trajectory you didn't post your last post and in another trajectory this thread doesn't even exist because gar was never born.
@Ken: I love taking a look at other trajectories when I meditate sometimes
got to a line where I was born a girl my parents called me Lia where everything was so different it was unbelievable...I grew up in a completely different city. I got married last year and about to finish my MA in Psychology...next year starting the PhD and I'm 3 months pregnant.
I almost didn't recognize myself. Was so sureal
and to your question Bloodsword, I both responded and didn't respond to Ken.
In a parallel trajectory you didn't post your last post and in another trajectory this thread doesn't even exist because gar was never born.
@Ken: I love taking a look at other trajectories when I meditate sometimes
got to a line where I was born a girl my parents called me Lia where everything was so different it was unbelievable...I grew up in a completely different city. I got married last year and about to finish my MA in Psychology...next year starting the PhD and I'm 3 months pregnant.
I almost didn't recognize myself. Was so sureal
BloodSword
Member
Once again, I could be missing something. Paradoxile maybe you should explore the Tibetan/Buddhist religion. They are very astute in past lifes or trajectories as you call them.A powerful belief in re-incarnation. Coming back into human form over and over until you get it right. And then attaining the spiritual level you were created to achieve. I don't know about all that and Philosphy(which I took in college yrs ago) and Scientific explanantions for this or that. That being alluded to, maybe this is why some don't want to accept God/Christ into their lives. It's just too easy, almost a given. The proverbial easy way out or to do things. That's all well and good that there are various opinions on this forum. And I will reiterate, I respect what all of you say. But, isn't this just becoming a little overbearing with all the man-made theories. I'm talking about God/Christ a divine being not of this Earth. Who will I assure you, expect all of us to make our decision regarding our Eternal lives. Please. THINK about your next life. And most important, listen to your hearts, your internal self. In time, answers will be provided. Peace. Now, I'm going on a "trajectory" one that involves a soft, warm woman. Peace.
Stilgar
Berzerker
The trajectories he's talking about doesn't involve past lives. It's the same life, just different "dimensions" of the same life.
There's actually a movie that plays with the basics of this theory, if you want to explore it. It's called "The One". It's only a "hollywoodesque" version of the theory, but you'll get the basic idea.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
oh man...you misunderstood about trajectories completely...I wasn't talking about past lives, I was talking about a tree formation about every time you make a choice a new branch comes of your current point...to maintain the ballance your parallel self(you in a parellel universe if you will) makes a different choice which is another branch from the same point...usually you have more than 2 choices so there are far more branches coming out of a single point.now we make choices every single moment so it splits and splits and splits some more.If you look above time then the tree is whole...a trajectory is what it is...a trajectory on the tree.
As for Buddhism I've been exploring pretty much every mojor and not so major religions out there and adopted some philosophies from each one
Even Christianity and Islam.As for accepting Christ into my heart...I'm jewish so that's kind of out of the question.
The thing is I never needed to accept God into my heart...It was always there and the visions I've been having since age 14 and the more recent telepathic and healing abilities only strengthen that.
I started looking for answers in the torrah(or the old testament if you will) and it doesn't provide any answers, it's purely an educational(not historical) book...many things have been edited, and some of the values there are just bloody wrong...like the fact that a girl having relations with her uncle is not considered incest while a guy with his aunt is, also about God ordering King Saul (through Samuel) to commit genocide at the people of Amalekh for giving them a hard time during the 40 years after exodus in the sini desert.
where's the "shall not have revange and grudge in the thy heart".
there are examples like this in the new testament too...like the little rendezvous of St. Peter and Simon Magus and the whole levitation thing in which after Magus was shown inferior,Peter's fanboys stoned Magus and I ask where's the turn the other cheek Jesus was talking so fondly of.
So I looked for a different expalnation because religion clearly wasn't providing one...then I came across wishing and praying that came true within different religions and It's done differently within each religion but all humans brains are formed the same and it's the same parts of the brain and same wavelength frequencies that are responsible for wanting something, wishing for something, praying and believing...the difference is in the language, the words you say but eventually intent is the same.
"But, isn't this just becoming a little overbearing with all the man-made theories. I'm talking about God/Christ a divine being not of this Earth"
that's the whole point...all scriptures are man made too...doesn't change anything.and Christ was of this earth...born a man, died a man and besides if you can find god within your heart and/or within your mind what does that really say about God...is it truly not of this earth...if god is all and everything then it's also of this earth.
the divine is simply divine because it's abstract and is supposed to be universal(though organized religion has made it anything but universal). Mathemattics is the true language of God...it formulates logic, language, the laws according to which the universe works(whether it's physics, chemistry astronomy, biology and any other field you can think about).The divine is simply what is undiscovered/unexplained yet at a given point in time.
people used to think that a mirror can catch a person's soul because optics weren't studied back then...if you show up with a piece of plastic some 2000 years in the past it will be considered divine because it's existance cannot be expalined at that time...as we in this time know that plastic is not divine but made simply by a chemical process.
Eventually my personal goal is to understand the nature of God, to know as much as possible, because knowledge is stronger than faith, in fact if you know(knowledge means you have proof or evidence) of something then you automatically also believe it.
now imagine how much more of a believer you become, when you know more...through knowledge you also stop believing in things that are bullshit because you know they are bullshit.
my faith's universality is within that will and belief as they are, are universal, and not what you want or what you believe in.
As for Buddhism I've been exploring pretty much every mojor and not so major religions out there and adopted some philosophies from each one
Even Christianity and Islam.As for accepting Christ into my heart...I'm jewish so that's kind of out of the question.
The thing is I never needed to accept God into my heart...It was always there and the visions I've been having since age 14 and the more recent telepathic and healing abilities only strengthen that.
I started looking for answers in the torrah(or the old testament if you will) and it doesn't provide any answers, it's purely an educational(not historical) book...many things have been edited, and some of the values there are just bloody wrong...like the fact that a girl having relations with her uncle is not considered incest while a guy with his aunt is, also about God ordering King Saul (through Samuel) to commit genocide at the people of Amalekh for giving them a hard time during the 40 years after exodus in the sini desert.
where's the "shall not have revange and grudge in the thy heart".
there are examples like this in the new testament too...like the little rendezvous of St. Peter and Simon Magus and the whole levitation thing in which after Magus was shown inferior,Peter's fanboys stoned Magus and I ask where's the turn the other cheek Jesus was talking so fondly of.
So I looked for a different expalnation because religion clearly wasn't providing one...then I came across wishing and praying that came true within different religions and It's done differently within each religion but all humans brains are formed the same and it's the same parts of the brain and same wavelength frequencies that are responsible for wanting something, wishing for something, praying and believing...the difference is in the language, the words you say but eventually intent is the same.
"But, isn't this just becoming a little overbearing with all the man-made theories. I'm talking about God/Christ a divine being not of this Earth"
that's the whole point...all scriptures are man made too...doesn't change anything.and Christ was of this earth...born a man, died a man and besides if you can find god within your heart and/or within your mind what does that really say about God...is it truly not of this earth...if god is all and everything then it's also of this earth.
the divine is simply divine because it's abstract and is supposed to be universal(though organized religion has made it anything but universal). Mathemattics is the true language of God...it formulates logic, language, the laws according to which the universe works(whether it's physics, chemistry astronomy, biology and any other field you can think about).The divine is simply what is undiscovered/unexplained yet at a given point in time.
people used to think that a mirror can catch a person's soul because optics weren't studied back then...if you show up with a piece of plastic some 2000 years in the past it will be considered divine because it's existance cannot be expalined at that time...as we in this time know that plastic is not divine but made simply by a chemical process.
Eventually my personal goal is to understand the nature of God, to know as much as possible, because knowledge is stronger than faith, in fact if you know(knowledge means you have proof or evidence) of something then you automatically also believe it.
now imagine how much more of a believer you become, when you know more...through knowledge you also stop believing in things that are bullshit because you know they are bullshit.
my faith's universality is within that will and belief as they are, are universal, and not what you want or what you believe in.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
>>It's just about perception, friend. If you think your senses allow you to perceive absolute truths, more power to you. I just find that awfully similar to what Mr. Gar says about their being one way and one truth. He arrives at it through the divine, you through logic. You're both chasing something you perceive that most likely isn't there.<<
Naglfar, It seems that you are trying very hard to break down and disrespect anyone who believes in anything divine. "Most likely isnt there"? Why do you disrespect my final destination? Thats your opinion with absolutely no proof. We who believe have historical evidence and scriptures to explain the world. Now, what do you have? Come on, you criticize but give no validity. Have you ever given the Holy Spirit a chance in your life? How do you know it doesnt totally change your life and put Gods wholesomeness within you? You dont!
Naglfar, It seems that you are trying very hard to break down and disrespect anyone who believes in anything divine. "Most likely isnt there"? Why do you disrespect my final destination? Thats your opinion with absolutely no proof. We who believe have historical evidence and scriptures to explain the world. Now, what do you have? Come on, you criticize but give no validity. Have you ever given the Holy Spirit a chance in your life? How do you know it doesnt totally change your life and put Gods wholesomeness within you? You dont!
Kenneth and Paradoxile, I truly believe you guys should log onto the site of Hal Lindsey. He covers Israel and America world events.. Kenneth you should watch his show on Daystar. Hes got DVD's also. The guy explains prophecy like no other. Even if you dont believe, you should check it out. You may find things you were waiting to get answered.
paradoxile
Den Sista Ljusbäraren
Thanks for the recomendation gar but I'm curently in the place where "the field" answers all of my questions...I also found out lately the reason why I've been getting prophecy dreams and visions.
as for what you said to Naglfar...scriptures are not a historical evidence
scriptures are educational and educational to the values of people who considered themselves decent 2000 years ago...common decency has changed quite a bit since then...the justice system has changed, the roman empire is not breathing on your neck and people don't get stoned for saying Jehova(just had to put monty python here), people don't get stoned to death as a punishment...well maybe in some third world arab countries where the poor live like it's 2000 years ago and some senile town elder is forcing marriage on 12 year olds.
as for what you said to Naglfar...scriptures are not a historical evidence
scriptures are educational and educational to the values of people who considered themselves decent 2000 years ago...common decency has changed quite a bit since then...the justice system has changed, the roman empire is not breathing on your neck and people don't get stoned for saying Jehova(just had to put monty python here
), people don't get stoned to death as a punishment...well maybe in some third world arab countries where the poor live like it's 2000 years ago and some senile town elder is forcing marriage on 12 year olds.
Abhorsen
Long Distance Voyager
Hal Lindsey is a Zionist and dispensationalist, or in other words a fucking lunatic. Usually I try and respect the beliefs of others but the stuff he blathers on about is just north of shit nuts. You have a better chance of stalking your local pumpkin patch this All Hallows Eve and seeing the Great Pumpkin appear than having so called "replacement theology" come to fruition.
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