NOVEMBERS DOOM - The Pale Haunt Departure

[JayKeeley]

NOVEMBERS DOOM - The Pale Haunt Departure

Label: The End Records: www.theendrecords.com

Tracklisting:

1. The Pale Haunt Deaprture
2. Swallowed by the Moon
3. Autumn Reflection
4. Dark World Burden
5. In the Absence of Grace
6. The Dead Leaf Echo
7. Through a Child's Eyes
8. Collapse of the Fallen Throe

For a while now, it’s been difficult to pinpoint exactly what kind of metal NOVEMBERS DOOM play. There’s little dispute that their debut was indeed ‘straightforward’ doom – almost borderline funeral doom if anything – but every release since then has shown a strong level of maturity and evolution towards…let’s call it Dark Metal. No, better yet: Autumnal Metal. Certain attributes make up this NOVEMBERS DOOM autumnal sound, and no, I don’t refer to the calendar month used in the band’s title. What you get here are two distinct trademarks: (a) Paul Kuhr’s vocals delivered across spoken narrative, clean harmonies, and coherent death growls, and (b) melancholic chord progressions that work alongside either their mid-paced or slowed down wretched death metal. Throw that all together, including an obvious nod towards folk rock bands of the 70’s, and you end up with a rather progressive soundtrack to autumn’s inherent despair.

The Pale Haunt Departure marks their fifth full release since ’95 (while they’ve been on the circuit since ’89), and it presents a style similar to that found on the previous effort, To Welcome the Fade. Some progression is evident, but it’s not quite as radical as, say, the change in playing style that came to be after The Knowing – quite easily their best album to date. With that said, the song structures are rather consistent throughout all their releases so there’s little doubt that you’re listening to a NOVEMBERS DOOM album -- it’s the way they play the songs that tends to make each album differ.

I’ll discuss the first three tracks since they’ll give a good overview of the album in general, and then I’ll offer the critique.

NOVEMBERS DOOM: Mid-paced melancholic death metal.

First rule: turn up the volume. Loud. The album starts off with the title track, “The Pale Haunt Departure”. This is traditional NOVEMBERS DOOM, right at home when playing in that galloping death metal momentum, but one particular standout moment is the final verse literally spat out in venomous wrath. Double layered vocal tracks between death growls and screams, only to end in a whispered “Your trust in….FAITH!”. The last word screamed with so much emphasis, I couldn’t tell whether it’s in angst or plain disgust. Either way, it’ll make your balls shrink.

NOVEMBERS DOOM: Poetry in motion, dismal theme.

“Swallowed by the Moon” is really a platform for the heartrending lyrics. As mentioned earlier, Kuhr’s death growls are articulate, so whether he’s narrating, singing, or growling, you always understand each lyric. And that’s the strength of this song: a father dying, and wondering how his young daughter will ever remember him, his guilt in passing away is swamped in apologies and hope for his child to make her mother proud. “Memories is all that you have, and I’m sorry I failed you in life”. My word….

NOVEMBERS DOOM: Very close but no cigar.

Now on to “Autumn Reflection”, and here is where I’ll lead into the crux of the review. First of all, there is no doubting the ANATHEMA vibe circa Alternative 4. The melody and even the vocals do sound influenced by Vincent Cavanagh, and that’s where I become slightly uncomfortable. For what it is, it sounds great but this is an example of how a great song just misses out from becoming a masterpiece. Let me explain: first of all, the first 4:32 minutes of this track begin to sound repetitive. The rescue arrives in the shape of a magnificent riff and melody at the 4:33 mark. THIS IS MASTERFUL. Whoever wrote this piece should be commended. I only wish they could have introduced this piece sooner in the song, in between the verses to add something more ‘homegrown’, and then reprise it in full blown effect at the ending of the song. At the 5:25 mark, a piano is added which accentuates the whole effect so perfectly and you can feel the song’s momentum just gathering infinitum, a musical passage that should just never end….we’ve all heard something so instense that we just want it to loop on and on forever……and then what happens? It stops at 5:55. For fucks sake, that’s 30 seconds of near-perfection just hammered with an immediate fade out to the song ending. (Please guys, if you’re going to play it live, just add three more minutes of this piece and let the audience absorb its ending for all it’s glory).

And that’s the story of the album right there: very close but no cigar. Don’t get me wrong, this is fantastic stuff, and probably sealed into my top 10 list for 2005, but it’s not the NOVEMBERS DOOM masterpiece that it could or should have been. That title is still ruled by The Knowing. I wonder if the band recognizes this, and makes the distinction?

I’m no expert but I can’t help but feel that NOVEMBERS DOOM became slightly inhibited after The Knowing. There seems to be an air of hesitancy in their delivery. Kuhr sometimes doesn’t explore his entire clean vocal range, and at times the spoken narrative seems like the ‘easy way out’, a foray into an explosion of growls. The guitar parts are practically now written for one guitar, and yet there are two guitarists in the band. What changed? Marriage? Kids? No more booze? No more drugs? The absence of a certain Eric Burnley’s songwriting dare I ask? Perhaps the stars were aligned for The Knowing and lady luck threw caution to the wind. Nevertheless, when the band just ‘lets go’, they sound much more genuine, and less like their peers. (Is it really necessary to keep the 4:43 – 5:10 section in “In the Absence of Grace”? If the first thing the listener thinks is ‘leftover riff from OPETH’s Damnation’ then it might be a good idea to drop it altogether and avoid the unnecessary comparison).

On the other hand, you can listen to “Through a Child’s Eyes” and hear a definite (and perhaps subconscious) ode to SIMON & GARFUNKEL’s “America” or “The Dangling Conversation”. This could quite easily be Paul Kuhr’s best clean vocal performance to date. The harmonies are spot on. (By the way, the inlay artwork for this song is just profound – a scarecrow, arms stretched out, face to face with the crucifixion of Christ upon a tombstone, the two figures divided by an empty path leading to the horizon through desolate fields). In any case, the point I’m trying to make is, an influence in sound is vastly different to something that may unfairly appear copied. NOVEMBERS DOOM have way too much talent to be standing alongside their peers at this junction, they should be leading the charge.

Thankfully, the album ends in a perfect NOVEMBERS DOOM moment. “Collapse of the Fallen Throe” is as doom-like as you’re going to get, and the riff melody is reminiscent of their past genius. The grandeur in the first half of the song moves into an acoustic piece leading to the final verse of the album, itself ending in screamed echo, “Blood for blood, you will be mine, through the pain I will rise, driven by this longing desire to be the one who loves you….FOREVER!!!”. The echoing fadeout is just phenomenal. To coin a phrase: Maximum Volume Yields Maximum Results.

Mixed by Dan Swano, mastered by James Murphy, and stunning artwork by Atilla Kis, this is a great release for both the band and the label. Expect to see this in many a top 10 list. It may not be their best album (most likely their second best), but it’s still better than 90% of anything else out there in the underground. We’re talking about one of the greatest bands in the US today, so expectations are inevitably going to be high – at least from me. Be that as it may, The Pale Haunt Departure keeps the band in the premier league, and there’s only some slight adjustments needed before they deliver an album for the ages. Stay tuned.

9/10

 

[Novembers Paul]

Jay,

I have to say thank you for putting so much time and thought into a review. It's seriously a reward to me, and it doesn't even matter to me if it's a positive or negative review, when a person puts this kind of effort into it. You really "listened" to the disc, and your opinions mean more to me because of that. In this case, this is a positive review, and although you have issues with moments of the disc, you say WHY you dislike them, and even offer suggestions/opinions. As proud of this CD as I am, some of your points, some of us in the band actually agree with you, and all of this is taken into consideration when we write new material. Everyones opinions differ, and "The Knowing" for me was a very forced CD. It was difficult putting it all together, and even more difficult to listen to for me, because there is so many things I wish could be changed after the fact. This is a good thing though, because it makes us continue to push ourselves, and try new things.

Guys like you make it a pleasure to keep doing this. Thanks again!

 

[JayKeeley]

Hey Paul - thanks for visiting. I guess the way I look at it is that if I were in a band, and someone was to review my material, I'd want them to delve into the center of it all and then turn it inside out.

By the way, if it's of interest, I'm going to review The Knowing next (tomorrow) and explain exactly why I think that album is your best one yet.

 

[Captain Beard]

I LIKE this album. Thanks for pointing it out, JK.

 

[spaffe]

Great review, I'm downloading some samples as I write.

 

[NAD]

This album rocks, the riffs are so full and lush sounding it feels like they are swallowing my head.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Hey Jay, thanks for the review....I don't need to say much more on that note because Paul pretty much covered our feelings about that, and needless to say, good or bad, we appreciate when someone really takes the time to delve into their review and be fully detailed on why they feel what they feel. Very nice.

Now onto other things.....you mentioned a few things in the review that I'd like to address, just to clear some things up, and give you some of the perspective from being "in the band", like you'd mentioned. This isn't meant as a complaint or arguement in any way, only giving my view on a few things....

You wrote: "Now on to “Autumn Reflection”, and here is where I’ll lead into the crux of the review. First of all, there is no doubting the ANATHEMA vibe circa Alternative 4. The melody and even the vocals do sound influenced by Vincent Cavanagh, and that’s where I become slightly uncomfortable."

Okay, well, this song was pretty much my creation from beginning to end, musically at least (Paul came up with all of his own lyrics and vocal melodies), and I have to state that while I can understand where the listener would perhaps get some general Anathema vibe out of it, the song was in fact very directly influenced by Pink Floyd and to a lesser extent, Katatonia. I think alot of people attribute our heavy Floyd influences to being "Anathema influences" because lets face it, the Cavanaughs have been influenced heavily by and in some cases come damn near to mimicing Floyd, especially on albums like "alternative 4". Before people start screaming at me, I'm not saying Anathema are ripping them off, and frankly I think their Floyd-isms are fantasticly done and they've basically made it their own. My point is, though, that we, especially myself, are in fact influenced by Pink Floyd alot... I realise that some people might find this unnecessary for me to point out so vehemently, but I just personally get really irked when people (not necessarily you Jay) automatically presume that we're copping an "Anathema" vibe or copying their style, when in fact I hardly even listen to that band.

"Don’t get me wrong, this is fantastic stuff, and probably sealed into my top 10 list for 2005, but it’s not the NOVEMBERS DOOM masterpiece that it could or should have been. That title is still ruled by The Knowing. I wonder if the band recognizes this, and makes the distinction?"

Funny thing there is, the band pretty much feels as a whole that "The Knowing" is our least favorite album, particularly when it comes to performing that material live. Even when Eric was in the band and the album was first released, it was a chore playing that stuff live, it didn't really translate well on stage and it just felt kind of labored. It's definitely an album of ours that I have a hard time listening to from beginning to end. It is what it is, and it's the best we could do at the time, and I think it's cool that people like you really love that album, honestly. But our opinions differ greatly from yours on this matter. We collectively think that this new cd stomps on "The Knowing" to put it bluntly haha. It's okay if other people don't agree, ultimately we have to please ourselves first and foremost, and this album pleases us =)


"I’m no expert but I can’t help but feel that NOVEMBERS DOOM became slightly inhibited after The Knowing. There seems to be an air of hesitancy in their delivery. Kuhr sometimes doesn’t explore his entire clean vocal range, and at times the spoken narrative seems like the ‘easy way out’, a foray into an explosion of growls. The guitar parts are practically now written for one guitar, and yet there are two guitarists in the band. What changed? Marriage? Kids? No more booze? No more drugs? The absence of a certain Eric Burnley’s songwriting dare I ask? Perhaps the stars were aligned for The Knowing and lady luck threw caution to the wind. Nevertheless, when the band just ‘lets go’, they sound much more genuine, and less like their peers. (Is it really necessary to keep the 4:43 – 5:10 section in “In the Absence of Grace”? If the first thing the listener thinks is ‘leftover riff from OPETH’s Damnation’ then it might be a good idea to drop it altogether and avoid the unnecessary comparison)."

Okay....gotta delve into this one for sure LOL....this is a perfect example of how outside perception differs so greatly from that of the people inside the band itself. The mention of "hesitancy" is ironic because in fact, there's much less hesitancy SINCE that album (The Knowing) rather than more hesitancy on our part. Like I mentioned before, we don't view that album as being our master opus, and we definitely did not want to be strapped into playing that particular sound over and over again, not at all. Honestly Jay, its so funny because it's like you got it completely all backwards, no offense!! If anything, Paul's vocals were MUCH more inhibited back on "The Knowing"! The spoken word parts were, in my opinion, done much more out of a hesitancy to explore more of his actual melodic clean singing, which he truly only delved head-on with "In Memories Past" on that album. Paul's melodies, his structuring, even his growls and spoken parts I feel have come along so much since "The Knowing", I am really surprised you didn't notice that? Paul himself will attest to the fact that he feels much more confident in his range and exploring new territory vocally these days than he did five years ago.
As for the guitar parts, again, totally backwards you are LOL Eric and I both wrote very much in the mindset of the "single guitarist" back then, as opposed to now, where Vito and I write very collaboratively yet work out our own separate parts so that we're not just copying each other throughout. Perhaps what makes it seem more singular is the fact that the guitarists are playing much cleaner and tighter with each other than before. I can appreciate that old "looser" way of playing that we used to do back then, but that's just not what we want to do anymore. Surely songs like "Dark World Burden" or "Pale Haunt Departure" would suffer greatly from that looser style of playing that Eric and I utilised at times back then.
On the subject of Eric, this is a touchy matter for me, because many people stated concern when Eric was announced as having departed the band, that the songwriting would "drastically change" or become less than what it was before. The thing is, not only did I have a huge part in the writing and arranging of the last three albums, but also, Eric's own songwriting had changed so drastically from what it was back in 1998, 1999, that I can tell you honestly, you wouldn't have heard more "The Knowing" material from him nor us, had he stayed in the band. I'm not meaning this as any negativity towards Eric, because I think he's a fantastic musician and a friend. But I think perhaps some people out there put a bit too much emphasis on his role in the band, in terms of thinking he carried the musical weight and development solely on his shoulders. He didn't (at least not since "Of Sculptured Ivy..." which I think is our best album next to this new one, personally).
I think maybe there's a bit of sentimentality and favoratism going on here Jay when you speak of "the Knowing" in comparison to our new disc and such. I think honestly, any cd we put out from here on out will never really match up to your expectations and desires concerning a new ND album....because you're most connected with "The Knowing", and nothing we do will ever match that for you. And frankly, we have no desire to retread that ground nor to create that kind of album again, for our personal reasons. It's okay, I'm not knocking you for this, because I know exactly how it goes. I wish Voivod would make another "Angel Rat" because I think it was a standout masterpiece from them, but most people don't agree with me, and furthermore, I don't think the band could do it again nor would they want to. It's not to say that albums they've done since then haven't been awesome, but none of them will ever reach me or click with me in the same way that "Angel Rat" did, for whatever reason the "stars were aligned" for me, or them at the time, like you mentioned LOL


Lastly, as for "(Is it really necessary to keep the 4:43 – 5:10 section in “In the Absence of Grace”? If the first thing the listener thinks is ‘leftover riff from OPETH’s Damnation’ then it might be a good idea to drop it altogether and avoid the unnecessary comparison).".... You should know that it's a rather unfair thing to say since we've written parts like that for years and years now. Dropping in with a clean acoustic harmonic minor chord section in 6/8 time is something we've done for years, even as Opeth have also made habit of utilising such sections themselves. To say we ought to drop that section due to the similarity or bringing on the "comparisons" is something we don't adhere to. We write parts like that because it moves us as musicians, and because we've written that way for years, irregardless of what Opeth does with their music. If we started omitting parts of our songwriting due to the "comparisons" that others will make to bands like Opeth or Anathema or whomever, we'd drive ourselves nuts always second guessing ourselves when we write. Bottom line is, parts like that exist in our songs because we like the way they sound, and we like playing them, and we feel it belongs there =) If it reminds people of Opeth, oh well. I have been writing stuff like this since before I ever heard them.
Screw them, they didn't invent that style, I'll wrestle em over it! hahaha just messin' around.

Anyhow, we're really fully happy with this new album, and I'm glad that you liked it so much considering how different it is from your favorite cd of ours. I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you said that stood out and offer my "inside" perspective on them. Not meant as negativity on my part, just debate Thanks again for the review man!!

Larry
N.D.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

P.S. Excuse my typos and grammar at times in the previous post, I was being distracted while trying to type! Silly me

 

[JayKeeley]

Hey, this thread got 5 stars already!

My point is, though, that we, especially myself, are in fact influenced by Pink Floyd alot... I realise that some people might find this unnecessary for me to point out so vehemently, but I just personally get really irked when people (not necessarily you Jay) automatically presume that we're copping an "Anathema" vibe or copying their style, when in fact I hardly even listen to that band.

OK fair enough. With that said, perhaps it's fair to say that both ND and Anathema are influenced by Pink Floyd in the exact same manner, and so the end result is similar? That aside, my biggest criticism of "Autumn Reflection" isn't who it reminds me of, but that it ends WAY too abruptly. Even if you weren't going to change the song structuring, I really believe that you could have let the outro play out a couple more minutes -- the last section of that song contains some of the finest music on the entire album.

We collectively think that this new cd stomps on "The Knowing" to put it bluntly haha. It's okay if other people don't agree

Hey, just out of curiosity, have you guys ever run a poll in your forum for fans to pick their favorite album?

Paul's melodies, his structuring, even his growls and spoken parts I feel have come along so much since "The Knowing", I am really surprised you didn't notice that? Paul himself will attest to the fact that he feels much more confident in his range and exploring new territory vocally these days than he did five years ago.

I guess I did notice that actually. It's also why I said that "Through a Child's Eyes" is his best performance to date. As you mention with the guitar parts, perhaps my interpretation is that things aren't quite as 'loose' as they were on TK, as you say, so the vocals and guitars become part and parcel.

As for the guitar parts, again, totally backwards you are LOL Eric and I both wrote very much in the mindset of the "single guitarist" back then, as opposed to now, where Vito and I write very collaboratively yet work out our own separate parts so that we're not just copying each other throughout. Perhaps what makes it seem more singular is the fact that the guitarists are playing much cleaner and tighter with each other than before.

Yeah, I guess I'm not as much of a fan of 'clean and tight'. I prefer dirty, gritty, messy, Hendrix-like 'splattered' playing. It just feels...less scripted when you hear playing like that. I also prefer lesser production. Sometimes overpolishing a sound can be detrimental to the overall vibe of an album.

I can appreciate that old "looser" way of playing that we used to do back then, but that's just not what we want to do anymore. Surely songs like "Dark World Burden" or "Pale Haunt Departure" would suffer greatly from that looser style of playing that Eric and I utilised at times back then.

Fair enough, and yes I agree, those particular songs wouldn't work as well otherwise.

On the subject of Eric, this is a touchy matter for me, because many people stated concern when Eric was announced as having departed the band, that the songwriting would "drastically change" or become less than what it was before. The thing is, not only did I have a huge part in the writing and arranging of the last three albums, but also, Eric's own songwriting had changed so drastically from what it was back in 1998, 1999, that I can tell you honestly, you wouldn't have heard more "The Knowing" material from him nor us, had he stayed in the band.

OK that's interesting. Likewise, unless anybody knows you guys personally, there is no way of somebody like me making a speculation like that. However, it clearly states in the TK liner notes, that other than "In Faith" and "Last God", all music for The Knowing was "written by Eric Burnely", so I guess you have to be a little forgiving of how people might interpret that.

I think maybe there's a bit of sentimentality and favoratism going on here Jay when you speak of "the Knowing" in comparison to our new disc and such. I think honestly, any cd we put out from here on out will never really match up to your expectations and desires concerning a new ND album....because you're most connected with "The Knowing", and nothing we do will ever match that for you.

Possibly, and I do understand how people will always have that one favorite album from a band because it connected with them the most on many levels, but I honestly have to say, I started with To Welcome the Fade, and then made my way backwards. All I can say in reference to hearing The Knowing for the first time is that by the time "Awaken" ended and "Harmony Divine" began (the way it explodes), I was sold. sold. sold.

Am I wrong, but did you kick off your live show with "Awaken" when you were touring with Agalloch and The Gathering?

If we started omitting parts of our songwriting due to the "comparisons" that others will make to bands like Opeth or Anathema or whomever, we'd drive ourselves nuts always second guessing ourselves when we write. Bottom line is, parts like that exist in our songs because we like the way they sound, and we like playing them, and we feel it belongs there =) If it reminds people of Opeth, oh well. I have been writing stuff like this since before I ever heard them.

It's a really interesting argument. I guess you could dedicate an entire thread to this discussion. I absolutely agree that you shouldn't compromise your music style for anyone, but there are also times when you have to just take a step back and really listen to what's coming out the amp.

Believe me, I do TOTALLY recognize that playing style you mention across all your albums, and I accept that it's an intrinsic part of Novembers Doom since you've been doing it for so long, but the moment I picked out was very specific: "In the Absence of Grace", section: 4:43 - 5:10. I just thought it was a bit too close to something like Opeth's "Harvest" or something. I know we're only talking about 30 seconds worth of music, but still, it's SO familiar sounding, it just takes me by surprise each time I hear it.

Screw them, they didn't invent that style, I'll wrestle em over it! hahaha just messin' around.

I couldn't agree more. Old school 70's & 80's bands aside, there were other bands in the metal underground interweaving 'soft' and 'hard' parts together well before somebody like Opeth. Eucharist and Tiamat are two examples.

Anyhow, we're really fully happy with this new album, and I'm glad that you liked it so much considering how different it is from your favorite cd of ours. I just wanted to comment on a couple of things you said that stood out and offer my "inside" perspective on them. Not meant as negativity on my part, just debate Thanks again for the review man!!

Hey, no problem. There is nothing better than dissecting music with the people who wrote it. Believe me, we spend hours everyday discussing music in our forum, it only makes it better when the actual musician joins in.

I am even more excited about writing a review for The Knowing now. Can't wait for you to read that one...with any luck, I'll have it done by tonight.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

I must say, it has been really interesting to read this thread, and I haven't even heard the album yet! I'm with Jay on one thing, though! "The Knowing" is my favorite!

 

[Demonspell]

Excellent review, though I disagree with the inhibted paragraph...either way it's great to see the band respond in detail to it, and provide more valuable information about their influences and the writing process than most interviews would allow.

 

[NAD]

Hey, this thread got 5 stars already!

Good review + good discussion, including the actual bandmembers = 5 stars.

 

[Black Winter Day]

Saw this in Media Play today, almost picked it up.

The only one I own is "To Welcome the Fade", which I'm kinda iffy on but haven't listened to enough.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Hey, this thread got 5 stars already!



OK fair enough. With that said, perhaps it's fair to say that both ND and Anathema are influenced by Pink Floyd in the exact same manner, and so the end result is similar? That aside, my biggest criticism of "Autumn Reflection" isn't who it reminds me of, but that it ends WAY too abruptly. Even if you weren't going to change the song structuring, I really believe that you could have let the outro play out a couple more minutes -- the last section of that song contains some of the finest music on the entire album.



Hey, just out of curiosity, have you guys ever run a poll in your forum for fans to pick their favorite album?



I guess I did notice that actually. It's also why I said that "Through a Child's Eyes" is his best performance to date. As you mention with the guitar parts, perhaps my interpretation is that things aren't quite as 'loose' as they were on TK, as you say, so the vocals and guitars become part and parcel.



Yeah, I guess I'm not as much of a fan of 'clean and tight'. I prefer dirty, gritty, messy, Hendrix-like 'splattered' playing. It just feels...less scripted when you hear playing like that. I also prefer lesser production. Sometimes overpolishing a sound can be detrimental to the overall vibe of an album.



Fair enough, and yes I agree, those particular songs wouldn't work as well otherwise.



OK that's interesting. Likewise, unless anybody knows you guys personally, there is no way of somebody like me making a speculation like that. However, it clearly states in the TK liner notes, that other than "In Faith" and "Last God", all music for The Knowing was "written by Eric Burnely", so I guess you have to be a little forgiving of how people might interpret that.



Possibly, and I do understand how people will always have that one favorite album from a band because it connected with them the most on many levels, but I honestly have to say, I started with To Welcome the Fade, and then made my way backwards. All I can say in reference to hearing The Knowing for the first time is that by the time "Awaken" ended and "Harmony Divine" began (the way it explodes), I was sold. sold. sold.

Am I wrong, but did you kick off your live show with "Awaken" when you were touring with Agalloch and The Gathering?



It's a really interesting argument. I guess you could dedicate an entire thread to this discussion. I absolutely agree that you shouldn't compromise your music style for anyone, but there are also times when you have to just take a step back and really listen to what's coming out the amp.

Believe me, I do TOTALLY recognize that playing style you mention across all your albums, and I accept that it's an intrinsic part of Novembers Doom since you've been doing it for so long, but the moment I picked out was very specific: "In the Absence of Grace", section: 4:43 - 5:10. I just thought it was a bit too close to something like Opeth's "Harvest" or something. I know we're only talking about 30 seconds worth of music, but still, it's SO familiar sounding, it just takes me by surprise each time I hear it.



I couldn't agree more. Old school 70's & 80's bands aside, there were other bands in the metal underground interweaving 'soft' and 'hard' parts together well before somebody like Opeth. Eucharist and Tiamat are two examples.



Hey, no problem. There is nothing better than dissecting music with the people who wrote it. Believe me, we spend hours everyday discussing music in our forum, it only makes it better when the actual musician joins in.

I am even more excited about writing a review for The Knowing now. Can't wait for you to read that one...with any luck, I'll have it done by tonight.

Cool Jay, I'm glad you responded and with a rational and well thought out rebuttal to mine! If only more people could agree and disagree in this manner, I wouldn't sit here ripping my hair out so often in frustration over some of these people on the forums' comments, haha....luckily, I've still got quite a bit of hair left!

The Pink Floyd thing-- yes you pretty much got my point there. I think Anathema and ND are pretty drawing from the same well there, if you catch my drift, and so there's going to be inevitable similarities I guess, though I still think our approach towards it differs alot from theirs. As for the end of "Autumn Reflection", yeah yknow that's just one of those personal taste things I guess. When we play it the way it is, it "feels right" to us, y'know what I mean? To drag it out further might seem less abrupt to you and might be more enthralling of a listening experience for you, but wouldn't feel right to us...and since we're the goofballs who have to play the damn song repeatedly, our choice wins haha Still and all I'm glad that the song appealed to you even if it was only in partial.

As for the favorite album poll, we've attempted things similar to that before, but you wind up with alot of people who either can't make up their minds, change their minds, or just are lazy and won't bother answering! LOL Point is, speaking for the band and myself, we aren't overly fond of the material on "The Knowing". It's not to say we're not proud of it but it's one of those things where from the songwriter/musicians standpoint, there's alot about that cd that doesn't sit well with us and also like I said, playing that material live was always a bit awkward even back in the day.....and yes, we did open with "Awaken" we did that just for guys like you! It's not to say we won't ever perform any songs from that album ever again but let's just say that it's not usually our first choice nor our preferred choice. I personally enjoy playing "The Day I Return" live, and we had planned to play it on the Gathering tour, but time constraints wound up causing us to cut it out. It wasn't our faults, honest!!

As for the Eric and songwriting issue-- Yes, you are correct, according to the liner notes, it states that Eric wrote most of the songs and I only wrote the two......that unforunately is a bit of a bone of contention between the bandmates and songwriters over that issue that wont get into now....I will only say this-- you'll never see that happen again, it will always be "music written by Novembers Doom", because unless a song is completely written, note for note, and structured as it appears on the album, when the songwriter brings it in, then it's NOT entirely that persons song, I'm sorry. I had alot of input on Eric's songs, and he had input on mine as well. Why it was credited that way, is something between us at the time, and all I know is, that'll never happen again. But I do realise that the average listener wouldn't know all this and I don't expect them to. That was part of the reason I wanted to "clear things up" with my comments on this thread.

Oh and I did know that you were intro'ed to us through To Welcome The Fade first, actually, I recall that from previous threads and stuff, don't get me wrong! I wasn't meaning to imply that you were favoring "The Knowing" simply due to it being a first impression favoritism... just that it was, for whatever reason personal to you, the cd that hit you or grabbed you in the right way, same as my personal Voivod "Angel Rat" example. I'd been listening to them since the mid-eighties and was already into them, but that album particularly for some reason grabbed me in a way that their other albums hadn't reached me in the same way. That's what I meant, and trust me, I'm flattered that ANY of our cds would impress upon you in that way, be it new or old!

Lastly, as for the so called Opeth-ish section in "..Absence of Grace", I understand what you're saying to a degree. If I step back and look at those particular chords and the time-signature behind it, I can see how it reminds you of something like "Harvest", because yes basically it's a very similar chord movement happening there. Did I realise it at the time? Nope, I really didn't. Can I be blamed for that? Not really, because the fact of the matter is, I dig Opeth and I think they're talented as fuck and I listen to them from time to time, but I really don't play that close attention to them where I'm going to automatically notice or realise that something I've written is that similar, unless it's something more at the forefront of my mind, or something I listen to repeatedly. I actually recall that when I wrote that part, I think I was kind of copping sort of an Amorphis-vibe there (whom I am in fact a huge fan of their whole catalog!), so the Opeth thing didn't strike me at the time. So as far as taking a step back and realising the similarities, blah blah blah, honestly it just didn't happen because I didn't even notice it. Considering how alot of our structuring and chord use appears to be (according to some) so similar to that of Opeth's anyhow, I guess it's inevitable that a section or two is going to sneak by that will bear a little more than a passing resemblance to Opeth. Hey can I help it if I grew up listening to alot of prog rock man? Give a guy a break, LOL :Spin:

Oh and on that note too, we still get crap from some people over the beginning riff of "With Rue and Fire" sounding so much like a riff in "Sear Me"...funny thing is, Eric wrote that song, and he'd honestly never heard "Sear Me" in his entire life LOL It was just a silly coincidence that everyone was utterly convinced was intentional. It even became a joke between us and the Bride guys, they thought it was cool actually LOL Some people get way too worked up over shit like that, yknow?

Anyhow, come see us on our next tour jaunt and we'll see if we can't slip something you favor into the set Just please don't ask for "Torn" or "Searching The Betrayal" because I'll have to kill you LOL

Take it easy folks!

 

[JayKeeley]

Thanks for the post. A fine read, and certainly more exhaustive than the average interview!

Lastly, as for the so called Opeth-ish section in "..Absence of Grace", I understand what you're saying to a degree. If I step back and look at those particular chords and the time-signature behind it, I can see how it reminds you of something like "Harvest", because yes basically it's a very similar chord movement happening there. Did I realise it at the time? Nope, I really didn't.

I can't imagine how many times you've had to defend yourselves over the Opeth or Peaceville Three comparisons. I really wanted to make sure that although I listed your debut from '95, I also made mention of the beginnings of the band in '89.

It's also worth noting that no two Novembers Doom records sound alike. Granted, the last two are probably the most similar if you had to analyze it, but the variance between your debut and your latest is huge. With that said, the progression between each has been gradual and so all your songs still compliment each other, regardless of era.

Let me ask, however, that without compromising your songwriting values, where do you draw the line? As an analogy, if Judas Priest one day wrote a song with a short section that sounded just like the intro to Maiden's "Number of the Beast", would that be acceptable I wonder? Certainly the band has been around longer than Maiden, they play similar types of music, both with similar influences, so why couldn't it be coincidence? From a songwriters perspective, is there a boundary?

In the end, I agree with you entirely. I don't get why this 'genre' is so well guarded. You can take the following bands:

Opeth
Novembers Doom
The Provenance
Novembre
Primordial
My Dying Bride

They all play a type of "dark metal" yet each with their own distinct sound. If listeners notice similarities between bands, down to song structures or riffs, then so be it. You can apply this argument to any genre category. But to suggest that one band is a clone of the other is completely wrong IMO.

The reality is, Opeth have become SO huge that they have somehow taken ownership of an entire brand of 'dark progressive metal' and people have become short sighted. Compromise or not, it's almost as if bands should purposely distance themselves just so not to get caught in that riptide.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

"Let me ask, however, that without compromising your songwriting values, where do you draw the line? As an analogy, if Judas Priest one day wrote a song with a short section that sounded just like the intro to Maiden's "Number of the Beast", would that be acceptable I wonder? Certainly the band has been around longer than Maiden, they play similar types of music, both with similar influences, so why couldn't it be coincidence? From a songwriters perspective, is there a boundary?"

Good question...well, speaking for myself personally, sure there are boundaries. It's not as if I haven't censored my own material.....hell man, to be honest with you, I throw away probably a good 80% of what I write before it even seriously gets worked on by the band. And sometimes the reason I throw away that stuff is because it's too similar to something else, be it another band's style or a particular song, what have you...but the point I was making in my last post was that it's nearly impossible in this day and age to write 100% unique riffs or songs and not have something that winds up bearing a similarity, even a strong similarity, to something else. If Priest wrote a song today that sounded like the beginning of "Number of the Best", it could very well be an accidental coincidence, because I'm pretty sure that those guys don't sit around listening to old Maiden much (I could be wrong, perhaps?? Who knows...) but the thing is, odds are that someone at some point, be it an engineer, producer, A & R label rep, etc., is going to notice something that blatant, being that "...Beast" is such an epically well known song within the Metal genre......now perhaps a better example would be, what if Priest wrote a new song, and it had a riff that sounded like the solo section of "Another Life" by Maiden....could Priest be held accountable for that, especially being a song that's so obscure technically? It seems inevitable that two bands who've been around as long as Maiden and Priest have, playing a somewhat similar style of metal, could quite logically wind up treading on some similar ideas, riffs, etc. My bottom line is this....songwriters can and should do what they can to be original and not rip off other people's ideas, but with so much music out there today, it's nearly impossible to write five albums worth of material and not wind up with some parts that might resemble something another band already did. I do try to "censor" my writing alot....believe me I sensor my writing and am more critical of it than any reviewer could be. But my point was that I cannot drive myself completely crazy worrying about every single riff or song I write being completely unique from everything thats ever been done, whether it be by Opeth or whomever. I try my best to be original but if a riff slips by that resembles "Harvest" or whatever else it might sound like, well I guess as they say, shit happens. If it ruins someone's listening experience because of the resemblance, I'm sorry. I enjoy that section of that song alot, and I like playing it, and there you have it


"The reality is, Opeth have become SO huge that they have somehow taken ownership of an entire brand of 'dark progressive metal' and people have become short sighted. Compromise or not, it's almost as if bands should purposely distance themselves just so not to get caught in that riptide."

That's pretty much hitting the nail right on the head there....and it's certainly of no fault to Opeth, who again I can't emphasize enough, I think they're fantastic and I do really like them alot as a band and as people. But it DOES seem now like so many silly people out there, when they hear a band like ours play an acoustic section or song, they say "Oh thats very 'Damnation' sounding"......seriously, I've heard that album enough times, and seen them play that material live a few times even, and I can tell you that alot of the acoustic stuff I've written and played does not sound like "Damnation", other than it being played on an acoustic and having a slow, melancholy feel to it! Again, it's one thing when people say something has a similar "feel" to something else, and it's another thing entirely when someone says its "just like" or "ripping off" because of such general comparisons. At least when you've mentioned other bands in your reviews of us Jay, you make the distinction of us being different enough that you're not trying to accuse us of being copycats or "sounding just like" Opeth, MDB, whoever else, etc. Alot of other reviewers aren't that reasonable, or smart, I'm afraid!!

Anyhow, sorry if this seems to be dragging on forever. For once I'm able to have some intelligent exchange and debate on these subjects and I'm taking full advantage of it, damn it! haha It's more well thought out and in depth than half the interviews I wind up doing, so I'm enjoying this

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Finally got it. Its very impressive, a lot better than "To Welcome The Fade", and deeply emotional. Most likely the best release on its kind for 2005.
I have to buy "The Knowing"

 

[JayKeeley]

BUMP (for warm up to Heathen Crusade)