NYC Protest

[El_Gato]

Evil_...

You can't be more wrong my friend (except they have high degrees education). This is the kind of shit-talk that only rightest-wing media is spreading in here. Nobody give credit to these except the old fascist brainwashed ones.

Have you been there and met the people who protest? cause where I live in Spain I'm going to protests 4 months ago and the people who's going there, are people who have their jobs, their house and their lives, including myself. I'm getting a bit angry because of this: The ones who have no job, no house, nothing are just a huge minority. I see everyday how the ones who would be more interested in a change are the lazy ones while we are fighting for a better and more fair future for our children.

Go there, argue, discuss and get yourself informed before throwing that old shit out of your mouth. It's getting funnily old.

 

[midget donkeys]

Against my better judgment I am going to make some actually non-mocking statements.

The specific issues that people in one country are facing are not necessarily the same as another country. The people in Spain live with a different economic and social programs than the United States. Making broad statements for or against all the people currently protesting different things on the planet is not logical.

I firmly support the US protesters right to peacefully protest.

That doesn't mean I support very many of their demands. My problem with the US protesters ideas (which is what this thread was originally about) is it doesn't take long before they become totally impractical.

I will start reading very vague statements by the protesters and generally agree with some of it. Then when they start listing actual demands they are very low on details or complete madness.

Erasing all debt as a demand? People not paying back their student loans, people not paying back their house mortgages, not paying their credit cards for the things they have bought. That is insane.

Who takes on the debt then? If the US government does it will need to drastically raise taxes or borrow more money from foreign sources. Taxing rich people more will only help so much, there just aren't enough rich people to pay off the countries entire consumer debt.

And craziest idea of all the US government not paying on the national debt as a demand. How does that work? What just print 14 trillion dollars off the press. Inflation would make the dollar have no value at all then.

Government bonds are owned by investors (which can be anyone, not just rich people) all over the world. The US refusing to pay its debts could throw the whole planet into an economic depression.

The only thing the US protesters agree on is that they are angry with the way things are going. It takes more than anger. We need realistic ideas, not fantasy.

 

[SocialNumb]

Well said donkey puncher.

Now please go back to mocking because this thread has become a cock fight and nothing more.

 

[kass]

Heh, you wish.

I dont have to wish. I have a few books which discuss this very issue, and also the issue of racial descrimination in a competitive marketplace. The economics of both are the same. In a competitive market, those who descriminate are punished by market forces. Those who dont are thus rewarded. We have seen this even in aparthied conditions in the southern US and in Africa when blacks would have lower unemployment rates than whites, or when business would break the law just to hire blacks and risk punishment for it. Whether you accept the market as counter agaisnt racial/gender descrimination (hower obvious it is), the facts dont change. When you compare gross differences between uncomparable groups, dont be suprised when the results are uncomparable. When comparable people are compared, the disparity between the "descriminated" and the rest shrink to either very small, zero, or even negative (ie. they make more - academic women in 1970 for ex.).

 

[MindMunch]

I dont have to wish. I have a few books which discuss this very issue.

OK, then lets compare numbers. Here are some:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

 

[kass]

OK, then lets compare numbers. Here are some:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

The gender wage gap and wage discrimination: illusion or reality?

Written by howard wall



The other sources i have are books so i wont list them.



Your source reports only a 9% gap, without even mentioning marriage.

Also, realize that whatever gap still exists(if any!), when you compare people who are actually comparable, represents only the upper limit on how much descrimination there is, not the absolute amount.

 

[kass]

The money comes from regular citizens via their 401ks, IRAs, mutual funds, etc. etc. Wall Street is nothing without Main Street. They've managed to convince us otherwise, but its true.

exactly


fuck those corporarions!



Oooh my 401k went up again. Nice!

 

[MindMunch]

The gender wage gap and wage discrimination: illusion or reality?

Written by howard wall



The other sources i have are books so i wont list them.



Your source reports only a 9% gap, without even mentioning marriage.

Also, realize that whatever gap still exists(if any!), when you compare people who are actually comparable, represents only the upper limit on how much descrimination there is, not the absolute amount.

So, how exactly does Wall explain this?

"Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more."

 

[kass]

So, how exactly does Wall explain this?

"Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more."

I don't know. Email him.

I'm sure he'd say something like :

The real issue is about comparing actual women vs actual men...not comparing real men vs. their counterpart hacked up and castrated male bodies with makeup and a deep voice! Have some common sense man...

 

[MindMunch]

I don't know. Email him.

Don´t need to. Read the article. He can´t even explain the "real woman" situation. He does a lot of loops to turn the numbers in what he wants, but even then he fails. The gap is still there. Then what? The most ridiculous conclusion ever written:

"The unexplained, or residual, portion of the gender wage gap could be due to wage discrimination, or to other factors, including labor market variables that are difficult to account for."

Dude, just LOL for even trying to use this joke as an argument.

 

[kass]

Don´t need to. Read the article. He can´t even explain the "real woman" situation. He does a lot of loops to turn the numbers in what he wants, but even then he fails. The gap is still there. Then what? The most ridiculous conclusion ever written:

"The unexplained, or residual, portion of the gender wage gap could be due to wage discrimination, or to other factors, including labor market variables that are difficult to account for."

Dude, just LOL for even trying to use this joke as an argument.

You know what...

You're a fucking idiot.

You first asserted that the gap between men and women is 30%.

When I say the gap is small, zero, or negative when you compare COMPARABLE people, you counter buy posting an article that compares some variables and reports a gap WAY lower than the one you used previously. The source i give reduces the gap to even 2%. That's what I call SMALL. And the existence of a gap, however small it may be, is a giant victory for you, although it exactly matches the my point? This represents the MAX amount of discrimination that CAN exist. Do you understand that concept?

I have studies that show occupations where women make MORE than men after variables are controlled for. I mentioned one already. Do you assert discrimination against men in those cases? Doubt it...


Asians in this country take come an avg. of 20% more a year than WHITES. Funny how nobody claims discrimination. Will you take up this cause for you next rant? Doubt it...

Dude, just LOL for even trying to use this joke as an argument.

Says the guy using fucking post OP trannies as a proxy for women.




Fuck me for taking the time to discuss an issue with someone who will ignore all facts that contradict his left-wing commie everyone-is-oppressed worldview....

I'm done with this thread.

 

[MindMunch]

You know what...

You're a fucking idiot.

You first asserted that the gap between men and women is 30%.

When I say the gap is small, zero, or negative when you compare COMPARABLE people, you counter buy posting an article that compares some variables and reports a gap WAY lower than the one you used previously. The source i give reduces the gap to even 2%. That's what I call SMALL. And the existence of a gap, however small it may be, is a giant victory for you, although it exactly matches the my point? This represents the MAX amount of discrimination that CAN exist. Do you understand that concept?

HAHAHA busted. You failed to prove every single point, even tried to drop names that didn´t even confirmed what you were saying. I'm still waiting for your data. So, where´s it? Prove me. Oh, you can´t. Because prejudice exists, sucker. What´s next, going to deny the holocaust too?

I have studies that show occupations where women make MORE than men after variables are controlled for. I mentioned one already. Do you assert discrimination against men in those cases? Doubt it...

Yeha, you mentioned a wrong one. Still waiting for a real prove.

Asians in this country take come an avg. of 20% more a year than WHITES. Funny how nobody claims discrimination. Will you take up this cause for you next rant? Doubt it...

Doing the exact same function at the same level/education? I doubt it. Show me the data.

Says the guy using fucking post OP trannies as a proxy for women.

Wrong. I proved that woman receive less AND sex gender op change the wage. By the way, it´s very different from travestites you dumbfuck, you can´t even tell the diference of a penis?

Fuck me for taking the time to discuss an issue with someone who will ignore all facts that contradict his left-wing commie everyone-is-oppressed worldview....

I'm done with this thread.

Contradiction? I proved every single point I made. You failed at all of them. Gone so soon? Metting at the KKK?

 

[roy22341]

You managed to accuse someone of being a holocaust denier and a KKK member in the same post. Congratulations ultimate asshole of the forum.

 

[MindMunch]

You managed to accuse someone of being a holocaust denier and a KKK member in the same post. Congratulations ultimate asshole of the forum.

And you´re the ultimate blind fuck. I don´t accuse, I ask. Can you read?

And by the way, what´s the problem with KKK, since for him prejudice does not exist, they´re just "variables that are difficult to account for".
Labor camps also may sound like an awesome idea, since the other alternative is death.

Oh, wait this logic only works when it comes to sexism and denying human rights to the chinese.

 

[Trevoire520]

When did this thread go capitalists vs anti capitalists? Oh yeah, when demanding more social services was confused with communism.

Again, to stay on topic, I'll say there are people from all ideologies in this protests.

No country was protesting to implant communism or socialism. It's undeniable politics, politicians, big corporations are still acting the same as before the recession exploded or even worse.

We ask for things to change. Most people don't want to see how their rights are being raped when those who flush us into the toilet keep earning even more than before.

Ok, so those who attack this movement with the typical shit the media throws everyday are saying things are the way they should be and nothing should change as this is the best system we may have?

Let me tell you people that there are many different degrees of democracy and capitalism. There are capitalist countries that have many social services and there are many others that have very few social services. Social services equals not socialism, more democracy is not socialism, public health care is not socialism.

Do we need to distract people from the topic, that is, more democracy, more control over politicians and politics, direct responsabilities the banks and bankers have in the recession?

Is it so dangerous we need to keep threatening with the commies? LOL this looks like the 80's again.

Bipartidism is the real danger here in Spain (and looks in the US too), both parties will do the same once they get to power so we're getting out to the streets from May 15th. We've seen how media manipulate shamelessly, we had countless meetings where people talked about the best system but in the end we have to find our points in common (not commie). Those were exposed briefly before.

Are you telling me the measures taken from 07 are the best or even good? we got nothing to worry about? capitalism is the best so we should let them go with our money as that's the nature of capitalism?

No sir, we, as a movement, don't try to put down democracy to put communism. We're trying this democracy to be more democratic. We, as democratic people, feel the need to stand up and raise our voice.

For ex. in Spain the gov has been dropping the taxes from the rich people since 07. Wow, and this party has the word "socialist" in its name. I'm sure if you do a referendum asking if you want to raise taxes from the richest or from the poorest, pretty sure the results would be the other way round. The common sense way.

The politics have been budget cuts, firings, cuts and firings. Nice but where are the measures to re-activate economy? Where is the public money we gave to the private corps? Where are the cuts and firings on the responsibles, the executives and the politicians? You won't see that.

If our governments are so democratic, they should listen to the people they represent. A shame most people watch tv only so they will keep voting the same no matter what.

So this is the main reason of the protests: showing people that there are many like us and communicate our vision and ideas. Take the streets, share your vision. It will encourage others to inform themselves and act accordingly. Mass media Tv and papers won't do that for you.

Great post.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I don't wanna have to lock this thread!

 

[midget donkeys]

Well said donkey puncher.

Now please go back to mocking because this thread has become a cock fight and nothing more.

I would love to mock people for entertainment purposes some more, but Mindmunch and Kass are so busy with their foreplay I don't think they would notice now.

They need to get it over with and both meet up at a bath house in San Francisco, lock eyes in an intense stare and just do each other like they obviously want to. Then they could both dress up like Marilyn Monroe and sing karaoke in biker bar.

 

[El_Gato]

The specific issues that people in one country are facing are not necessarily the same as another country. The people in Spain live with a different economic and social programs than the United States. Making broad statements for or against all the people currently protesting different things on the planet is not logical.

I firmly support the US protesters right to peacefully protest.

That doesn't mean I support very many of their demands. My problem with the US protesters ideas (which is what this thread was originally about) is it doesn't take long before they become totally impractical.

I will start reading very vague statements by the protesters and generally agree with some of it. Then when they start listing actual demands they are very low on details or complete madness.

Erasing all debt as a demand? People not paying back their student loans, people not paying back their house mortgages, not paying their credit cards for the things they have bought. That is insane.

Who takes on the debt then? If the US government does it will need to drastically raise taxes or borrow more money from foreign sources. Taxing rich people more will only help so much, there just aren't enough rich people to pay off the countries entire consumer debt.

And craziest idea of all the US government not paying on the national debt as a demand. How does that work? What just print 14 trillion dollars off the press. Inflation would make the dollar have no value at all then.

Government bonds are owned by investors (which can be anyone, not just rich people) all over the world. The US refusing to pay its debts could throw the whole planet into an economic depression.

The only thing the US protesters agree on is that they are angry with the way things are going. It takes more than anger. We need realistic ideas, not fantasy.

Oh yeah, I wasn't saying the protesters are the same as in Spain and the US. Of course even their demands should be different. But the same in essence. Time will tell.

I just was stating what happened in here with the media trying to shit all over us in the beginning. Happens that more than 85% of the population supports our demands. It's nothing but asking for a better democracy.

I say so because when protests started here, many people didn't feel into the movement because the demands and aims weren't specific enough.

Then, everyone realized they could go there and talk and discuss, so everybody could agree or not. Many people felt out of the game again because there were too many ideologies and too many demands.

Even people who I know they're activists for a very long time were like "meh, these are a bunch of kids and they have a lot to learn".

It wasn't until some weeks later when we realized that we had to agree in some basic points that allowed a more fair democracy (as you may know, there are different kind of democracies, some more fair than others so don't use these word like if it was holy or something). After discussing and voting, those 4 points were the ones that could represent us all.

When we have a different and more democratic system we'll be able to discuss a lot of matters we are not allowed to right now.

I can see your neo-liberal point of view. it makes sense if you're a selfish guy who doesn't care about others but let me tell you that scientists say that, from the point of view of evolution, the ones more successful were (are) those who were selfish of course but also taking into account their families (we fight for our children), the tribe (as a social-conscious movement, we also look for the interest of our community), the interest of the specie (we want a better distribution of work and rights for everyone) and the interest of the planet (eco-shit ftw)

 

[El_Gato]

^^^ lol. I'm sure discussing this in front of a beer is funnier, could last for weeks

About the debt, I don't know the specifics of your country but it was done before many times and even now, Greece is discussing whether they should canel 60% of the debt or not (well greeks are talking about it months ago, it's the government who's considering it. It's an extreme measure but that's economics: crazy shit. There are many reasons why a debt should be cancelled, not going into it but I think sometimes you need to.

 

[aramism]

by sheer coincidence i managed to bump into 6 "help wanted" ads all over new york city in my daily travels. bank, retail, professional offices.

take it as someone who felt a slight impact of the 2008 recession and stumbled back on my feet quickly, without a college degree: IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND A JOB IN NYC.

not the whole, but the majority of the reason some people can't find work is the unwillingness to want a certain job. this country is built on hustle and while you can't hold every single person up to the standard of raw hustle and entrepreneurship, there has to be some level of self-motivation. after all the core ideology behind "america" is not communism where everyone equally eats from government tit.

and i read an entire article in the paper and saw segment on news about how many protestors are pissed that the banks got bailed out and they charge ridiculous fees now. i don't understand???? there are PLENTY of non gigantic banks that charge NO fees, and have free checking, and have reasonable deals. no one puts a gun to your head to have your account with chase or bank of america. switch.