NYC Protest

All the power to the protesters, but I feel a bit disgusted about the way some people only care about the chinese working condition after they realize that "they took our job!". The very same guys that were gunning down the working class around the globe, calling them "the commie menace", are now tasting a bit of their own capitalist dream.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbC5f2z6PmI


You bro are a top bloke. I love Ken Loach, but I like your take even more.

AJE (Al Jazeera English) is doing an awesome four part series on how we got here. You might wanna watch. Of course, unless Faux News is your brainwasher of choice and watching AJE is blasphemy...

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/meltdown/2011/09/2011914105518615434.html

They don't look like Chinese Slave Labor to me... quite the contrary ;)
 
Ok. You seem upset that Apple didn't give you a $20 discount on the Ipad or whatever.



Sounds like a dream. What do you propose?





You really do not see how a CEO of a company worth $40billion dollars can make or loss the company billions?

Board members and ESPECIALLY shareholders are not involved in day to day. Managers are definitely involved. These top managers are hired and fired by the CEO. Again, it is quite obvious that the CEOs decisions hold a lot of impact. CEOs have run companies into the ground. CEOs have brought companies into great wealth as well. Sometimes a CEO is running a company into the ground, he gets fired and replaced, and the company comes into great success as a result.


You ask if I think low level employees should have better reward structure? Better for whom? Employee or company or general public? You and I may have ideas about what ways a company can get better performance from employee by giving incentives or whatever. However, there are people with their own money and careers at stake, who are in a better position than you and me to decide the pay structures of its employees. If costco decided to go an unusual route, and it is paying off for them, that's great. I have heard of other companies that share ownership and decision equally between all employees. That's great too if it works for them.


My basic point is this: There are people who have a lot more at stake in a company, who are in better positions than you and me to figure out what is best for a company, who are in charge of choosing a CEO and his payscale. These people willingly choose to offer millions to CEOs they think will run their company better. It is along the same lines of an average Joe getting hired for $20/hr because his employer sees in him the ability to earn the company a $50/hr benefit. If the employer thinks that Joe has the ability to earn the company $100million in a year, what do you think they would offer him for his services?

First and foremost, I'm not asking for a discount on anything from Apple. I know they have a great quality product that has awesome appeal to a lot of people myself included. How they go about getting this awesome product is the problem I was talking about. The money that they are making doesn't go to really take care of the workers producing the product they profit off of. You talk about millions being lifted out of poverty because of the job opportunities they have opened up. Not that Apple is guilty, however I will say that the building that all their shit is made in they had to install a net off of the top of the building because workers were committing suicide from it - whoops, but there are THE WORST workman safety standards of any country in the modern world in China.

At minimum, giving them a safe work environment and keep them at least happy enough to not kill themselves would be SOMETHING to do with the extra money they have because it costs them a fraction of the cost of what it used to make the $299.99 iPod or iPhone they sell at the same price point. It's exploitation bro, how do you not see it? Just because it's their and China doesn't give a fuck doesn't mean they HAVE to use it. It's thousands of miles away from their cares on a quarterly basis when they show wall street their record breaking earnings. Many companies are guilty of it. Cycling companies with carbon fiber frames for bikes that not only pollute the lungs of the workers sculpting these bikes they sell for thousands but the industrial run off just goes out into the street for kids to play patty cake in. I'm not saying, sell shit cheaper but fucking do something for the people literally killing themselves over making product you sell.

The CEO thing is dumb. Stupid argument. I provided you with an example that disproves your theory that "they are responsible for so much so they should have an astronomical salary" yet you still talk about what a CEO delivers. Don't thank the new CEO of Apple, Exxon, McDonalds, or whoever the fuck. I get it, being at the top should pay more than everyone else but why does it have to be 1500-2000% more than the dude in middle management or even worse on the front line. The guy installing brake pads on an assembly shouldn't make $500,000 a year at Ford but he could be given solid profit sharing option based off of the effectiveness of his plant and/or team. Scrape a few million from the top level management and distribute it out to the guys and girls exceeding expectations consistently. The top level management probably wouldn't even notice.

Fuck it, how about those top level people just pay the same tax rate as everyone else, problem solved. There are our roads, schools, and a solid step towards creating more jobs or a better health care system.

The hurricane ripped through our area and tore down trees and did damage. A county close to here (James City County) has one of the lowest tax rates in the state however some of the richest people in the area live there. I pay a much higher rate in Newport News but when the trees came down here, they got picked up. These assholes in James City County are complaining that they still have trees down because JCC doesn't have the budget for pick up. Washington is "apparently" releasing funds to get this shit picked up for them. I pay more in taxes, shit gets done. They pay less and have more money, and the government helps them out on the back end. WTF? Just another example of the backwards thinking that digs the hole deeper.
 
First and foremost, I'm not asking for a discount on anything from Apple. I know they have a great quality product that has awesome appeal to a lot of people myself included. How they go about getting this awesome product is the problem I was talking about. The money that they are making doesn't go to really take care of the workers producing the product they profit off of. You talk about millions being lifted out of poverty because of the job opportunities they have opened up. Not that Apple is guilty, however I will say that the building that all their shit is made in they had to install a net off of the top of the building because workers were committing suicide from it - whoops, but there are THE WORST workman safety standards of any country in the modern world in China.
Lol can you post a link to this suicide net thing? never heard of it.


At minimum, giving them a safe work environment and keep them at least happy enough to not kill themselves would be SOMETHING to do with the extra money they have because it costs them a fraction of the cost of what it used to make the $299.99 iPod or iPhone they sell at the same price point. It's exploitation bro, how do you not see it? Just because it's their and China doesn't give a fuck doesn't mean they HAVE to use it. It's thousands of miles away from their cares on a quarterly basis when they show wall street their record breaking earnings. Many companies are guilty of it. Cycling companies with carbon fiber frames for bikes that not only pollute the lungs of the workers sculpting these bikes they sell for thousands but the industrial run off just goes out into the street for kids to play patty cake in. I'm not saying, sell shit cheaper but fucking do something for the people literally killing themselves over making product you sell.

What I am saying is that while you find their pay and conditions horrible, the pay and conditions that multinational corporations offer these people are surely greater than they can get locally. Voluntarism kinda puts a hurt on an exploitation theory for the most part. I gather you have sympathy for the American worker who gets canned because someone else does his job cheaper, but also have sympathy for foreign worker who got a sweet new job but doesn't make as much as you do. Those two are at odds with each other.




The CEO thing is dumb. Stupid argument. I provided you with an example that disproves your theory that "they are responsible for so much so they should have an astronomical salary" yet you still talk about what a CEO delivers. Don't thank the new CEO of Apple, Exxon, McDonalds, or whoever the fuck. I get it, being at the top should pay more than everyone else but why does it have to be 1500-2000% more than the dude in middle management or even worse on the front line. The guy installing brake pads on an assembly shouldn't make $500,000 a year at Ford but he could be given solid profit sharing option based off of the effectiveness of his plant and/or team. Scrape a few million from the top level management and distribute it out to the guys and girls exceeding expectations consistently. The top level management probably wouldn't even notice.
I'm sorry what was your counterexample? Steve Jobs?


You apparently have a misunderstanding about what I'm saying, or what wages/salaries are based on. They are not based on responsibilities, hard work, level of position, intelligence, or any of that other stuff. Nor should they be. They are based on productivity. The ability to provide benefit for the company. The most benefit they are expected to provide, the more money they will be offered. It is EXACTLY the same as any other worker. What is the problem? This is no special "theory" that I have. It is simply how the job market works for everyone. I dont see the big problem with understanding this.

I will bring in specific examples of CEO performance when I can get to my books.


Fuck it, how about those top level people just pay the same tax rate as everyone else, problem solved. There are our roads, schools, and a solid step towards creating more jobs or a better health care system.

Well, we have the bottom 50% of people pay no income tax, or profiting from it....so surely you don't mean that. The majority of the rest are paying progressive tax rates...so as they make more, they pay a higher percentage. Maybe you're talking about the actual rich...top 1% who have nice lawyers who know how to use the tax code and all that. Well that top 1% already pays 40% of income taxes. top 5% pays 60%. top 25% pays 75%. You can see where im going with this. Top earners in this country are contributing most of our income tax revenue. I'm sure the rich and upper class would LOVE a flat tax. Love it. You really are overestimating the ability of a few rich people to carry this country if you think flat tax = problem solved.

The hurricane ripped through our area and tore down trees and did damage. A county close to here (James City County) has one of the lowest tax rates in the state however some of the richest people in the area live there. I pay a much higher rate in Newport News but when the trees came down here, they got picked up. These assholes in James City County are complaining that they still have trees down because JCC doesn't have the budget for pick up. Washington is "apparently" releasing funds to get this shit picked up for them. I pay more in taxes, shit gets done. They pay less and have more money, and the government helps them out on the back end. WTF? Just another example of the backwards thinking that digs the hole deeper.

They also have lower unemployment than your city, and 90% of the rest of your state, so perhaps they are benefiting from their tax rates more than you think. I don't think the federal government should help out there either.
 
https://occupywallst.org/

Ehhhhhh...

Good (not) old slogans of the commie revolution...

Basically what they are saying is:

"Few evil rich and greedy thieves vs masses of good, honest, exploited and poor people..."

But what i see is a lot of that greed in these protesters - all they want is more MONEY for themselves, they just want to take the money from the rich, to be like their legendary hero Robin Hood...

I have a simple recipe for more money: instead of sitting on the sofa, watching tv and drinking beer (or wasting your time on occupying a city in some dumb protest) - learn and become good at something, instead of just whining about how the rich exploit you - move your lazy ass and work harder to get even just that one step closer to being just as rich as them.

And don't give me that crap about how it is no longer possible to go from 0 to 1000000 USD in our modern times... it just takes high IQ and a lot of hard work (some luck helps too).
 
And don't give me that crap about how it is no longer possible to go from 0 to 1000000 USD in our modern times... it just takes high IQ and a lot of hard work (some luck helps too).

Are you a millionaire? I know a few. Deal with them on a daily basis. Hardly any IQ involved, and even less hard work.

I know a bunch of PhD university professor guys I drink with every now and then. They're nowhere near.

You must be from Disneyland.
 
Are you a millionaire? I know a few. Deal with them on a daily basis. Hardly any IQ involved, and even less hard work.

I know a bunch of PhD university professor guys I drink with every now and then. They're nowhere near.

You must be from Disneyland.

Heh...

You missed two key words in what i said: "possible" and "luck".

Actually see them and you will understand the real meaning of the statement which is:

It is not impossible to become rich even now during the big crisis, but if you are not lucky, you have to have high IQ and/or work hard.

Now what of the above is not true ?
 
It is not impossible to become rich even now during the big crisis, but if you are not lucky, you have to have high IQ and/or work hard.

Now what of the above is not true ?

You fail to realize that most of these protest around the globe are made by:
a) People that WANT TO WORK, but there´s no job because the government is greedy, corrupt and incompetent.
b) People that are WORKING TO THE BONE, without the right to even die.

You couldn´t be more wrong by calling the working class "lazy and dumb". They´re the ones that keep the wheels spinning, and they have the right to protest and demand dignity and good working conditions.

Show me one Apple CEO that works harder than the asian lady who makes his iPhone. Then tell me, how come the CEO gets a 500% raise in his already huge paycheck while all the asian lady gets is an anti-suicide net?

Don´t be so naive to think that the social movements are on the streets demanding softer couches and colder beers. They´re on the streets because they want the government to represent their will, not only the will of the rich.
 
I demand a new Ipad or I am refusing to eat my vegetables or brush my teeth before bed. If my demands are not meet soon I will also stamp my feet and cross my arms.
 
Heh...

You missed two key words in what i said: "possible" and "luck".

Actually see them and you will understand the real meaning of the statement which is:

It is not impossible to become rich even now during the big crisis, but if you are not lucky, you have to have high IQ and/or work hard.

Now what of the above is not true ?

you have to have high IQ and/or work hard

that there is disneyland bs. shit they tell little children. i ain't seen one guy who made millions from working hard/having a high iq (which in and of itself is a bullshit metric par excellence, especially when it comes to making money), well maybe that minecraft guy. that's one. all the others neither worked hard nor had "high iq's". and they all made way more than his little videogame ever will.
 
You fail to realize that most of these protest around the globe are made by:
a) People that WANT TO WORK, but there´s no job because the government is greedy, corrupt and incompetent.
b) People that are WORKING TO THE BONE, without the right to even die.

a) There is no such thing as "there is no job".

In a free country, everybody has the right to create his own work place and become his own boss (i am in this category, most probably you too).

Even now there are many job offers that they won't take because they think the pay is too low and/or they are "above" cleaning sidewalks and emptying trashcans, or preparing chickens in the meat factory.


b) Sit and think about why are they working to the bone.

Not good enough in school ?

Or too afraid to risk it all and invest some time/money to start their own business and exploit their workers ?

Too irresponsible when making too many children they can't even support ?


All i am saying is that it is your choice how to live your life and the evil politician far away has a very little effect on how easy or hard that life will be.

That old socialist thinking that people are equal and everyone deserves to earn good wages is an utopia.

I live in a country that got that shit forced on for almost 50 years after the 2nd world war, so i know how disastrous that idea can be on the economy.
 
i ain't seen one guy who made millions from working hard/having a high iq

So you imply that because you don't know any such people, then it is not possible ?


Whew... ok then i will make it short and simple...

My statement:

It is possible to start from scratch and earn good money right now.

True or not true ?
 
In most of the world? No.

What is "good money"?

These are highly relative terms.

You are weaseling out of an argument because you presented some major fallacies. Pride probably won't let you retract on them. Let me tell you what you need to make money in today's "free world"

Ruthlessness
Conviction
And a total lack of scruples

If you ain't got any of those three above, you can shove that hard work and "high iq" where the sun don't shine. That's for the chosen few. Lotsa kids love football, only three or four in a generation worldwide will get to be A list players. Hell is full of the average.
 
Let me tell you what you need to make money in today's "free world"

Ruthlessness
Conviction
And a total lack of scruples

You just insulted almost all successful people on this planet. :bah:

If you really believe in what you said, i can only feel bad for you.

No sense in trying to convince you that the reality is not as bad.

CU in some other controversial thread.

Believe in yourself, be a good person, etc etc etc :)
 
You just insulted almost all successful people on this planet. :bah:

If you really believe in what you said, i can only feel bad for you.

No sense in trying to convince you that the reality is not as bad.

CU in some other controversial thread.

Believe in yourself, be a good person, etc etc etc :)

Seriously, what an unhappy outlook to have on life