NYC Protest

[midget donkeys]

My sister in law works for Apple. She is not gay. And why hating on homosexuals anyway? That is not the way to build an equal society comrade.

 

[MindMunch]

^How do you know the men in question are homosexuals?

My sister in law works for Apple. She is not gay. And why hating on homosexuals anyway? That is not the way to build an equal society comrade.

 

[Revson]

What makes communism/socialism any less corrupt than capitalism? Why would they treat their workers any better? I'm pretty sure communists are cool with killing people with dissenting opinions too, just do a little research on Mao Zedong.

There's always a job in a rich country. Always. Sometimes you might think the job is beneath you, but there is always a job.

Why is a system of exploration a bad thing, especially if it advances technology and education? To me, exploration and progress go hand in hand.

Why doesn't China stop treating their workers as slaves? Foreign companies are just following their standards.

 

[kass]

Nope. Corruption is exactly what is good for business. I have a crap factory that makes useless shit. I slip a million bucks on the politician's pocket and he closes a deal that makes the government pays a billion to my factory every year. He becomes rich. I become rich. The people pays the bill.



Nope. Invested money goes to poor countries with lots of miserable people that accepts to work for barely nothing, maximizing profits for the company. The companies and their rich countries corrupt the poor country government to put a dictator on the power that will keep the things the way they are and kill anyone who protest.

What IS common sense, is that there will be a time where there wont´be more jobs at rich countries, since the companies only hire semi-slaves in poor countries. Jobless people don´t consume and the companies will find themselves with a bunch of products and no buyers.

At this point, the corrupt government usually invent a new war or bail out the companies using public money.

Hooray for free-market. Marx already knew this shit more than a hundred years ago.




They´re angry because it is a system based on exploration. A reckless system clearly destined to collapse on itself, and yet ignorant people defend it like christians blindly defend their faith.

Apple made $65 billion last year. How about use part of that money to treat factory workers like fucking people instead of sharing all the profit between half-dozen fags?

I have actual data that shows where money goes. It is invested in wealthy countries. That is a fact my friend. No amount of "nope" will change that.

If there exists a country that required bribery to get things done, would a new company start up here or go elsewhere where it would not have to deal with costly barriers controlled buy corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, who are already in the pocket of big business there?

Look among the most corrupt governments and you will not see great investment there.


You blame corrupt government consequences on free market. You answer seems to be put government in charge of all. Pretty silly if you ask me.

You and Marx subscribe to the zero-sum fallacy of economics.

 

[midget donkeys]

Screw this capitalism poop. Viva the revolution. I want the whole world to live in a communist utopia like North Korea.

And now I want two Ipads too.

 

[MindMunch]

What makes communism/socialism any less corrupt than capitalism? Why would they treat their workers any better? I'm pretty sure communists are cool with killing people with dissenting opinions too, just do a little research on Mao Zedong.

Get your facts straight, no country has ever been communist. Socialism is something absolutely different. Mao Tsé Tung, Stalin and Pol Pot aren´t examples of communism. On a communist society there´s not even the figure of the state, to begin with.

However, Salvador Allende and Jango were two leaders that would make society more right, but were murdered by forces sponsored by the CIA.

I realize some people have been brainwashed by the government to the point that even providing health care to the population is bad because "sounds like a communist thing, and communism is the enemy".

There's always a job in a rich country. Always. Sometimes you might think the job is beneath you, but there is always a job.

So I suppose you think people in Spain are just "lazy and dumb", right?
Or are you implying that those jobs at Foxconn and Cort guitars are fair jobs?

Why is a system of exploration a bad thing, especially if it advances technology and education? To me, exploration and progress go hand in hand.

Why doesn't China stop treating their workers as slaves? Foreign companies are just following their standards.

Because the men in power are not representing the will of the people, and that´s the whole reason to the protests. Do you have even a glimplse of how nasty were the coup d'états that USA sponsored in latin america to keep the people away from the power?

 

[outbreak525]

The revolution is underway

 

[MindMunch]

I have actual data that shows where money goes. It is invested in wealthy countries. That is a fact my friend. No amount of "nope" will change that.

If there exists a country that required bribery to get things done, would a new company start up here or go elsewhere where it would not have to deal with costly barriers controlled buy corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, who are already in the pocket of big business there?

Look among the most corrupt governments and you will not see great investment there.


You blame corrupt government consequences on free market. You answer seems to be put government in charge of all. Pretty silly if you ask me.

You and Marx subscribe to the zero-sum fallacy of economics.

So why do GM closed factories in USA to re-open them in Mexico?
How many ipads and iphone are made in USA, and how many in China?
Are the Philippines wealthier than South Korea? Because Cort decided to use their work force.
Who makes your orange juice and soy?

You do realize you´re in the middle of a recession, and things will get way worse, right?

 

[Revson]

Get your facts straight, no country has ever been communist. Socialism is something absolutely different. Mao Tsé Tung, Stalin and Pol Pot aren´t examples of communism. On a communist society there´s not even the figure of the state, to begin with.

You're right, there has never been a truly communist country simply because groups of people need leadership. Mao's rule in China was probably the closest thing to that though.

However, Salvador Allende and Jango were two leaders that would make society more right, but were murdered by forces sponsored by the CIA.

I realize some people have been brainwashed by the government to the point that even providing health care to the population is bad because "sounds like a communist thing, and communism is the enemy".

I'm not saying communism is the enemy. If it were financially viable for a country of our size and demographics I think universal health care would be a great thing. The problem is that it's not viable. The US spends $20 billion on dialysis treatments each year (yes, entirely paid for by taxes) and when they put the plan into motion in the 60s or 70s the budget was not expected to be more than $100 million.

All I'm really trying to get across is that capitalism is not the enemy, which many people are being brainwashed into thinking lately.

So I suppose you think people in Spain are just "lazy and dumb", right?
Or are you implying that those jobs at Foxconn and Cort guitars are fair jobs?

Again, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you want a job then you can find a job. Just because someone went to college for engineering doesn't mean they can't work as a janitor for a while.

Are you trying to imply that without capitalism everyone would look like a fitness model? Are you also trying to imply that communist beliefs didn't play a part in the Chinese famine where 20-40 million starved to death in the 50s-60s?

Because the men in power are not representing the will of the people, and that´s the whole reason to the protests. Do you have even a glimplse of how nasty were the coup d'états that USA sponsored in latin america to keep the people away from the power?

Again, going back to Mao: he represented the will of the people. He killed the wealthy, sent intellectuals to re-education camps to learn how to labor like a peasant, and boasted about burying 460,000 scholars alive. Ultimately, about 70 million of his people died needlessly under his reign, all for the good of securing power for communist ideals.

Yes, capitalism is a flawed system because some people are greedy and like to ruin things for everyone else, but communism is equally flawed for the exact same reasons and both have been the cause of horrible deeds to humanity.

 

[ratsapprentice]

People starving in Africa is nothing new, much of the continent is inhospitable and not fit to support human life.

 

[kass]

So why do GM closed factories in USA to re-open them in Mexico?
How many ipads and iphone are made in USA, and how many in China?
Are the Philippines wealthier than South Korea? Because Cort decided to use their work force.
Who makes your orange juice and soy?

You do realize you´re in the middle of a recession, and things will get way worse, right?

Munch, just google where capital flows. Rich countries or poor countries. I gave you some main reasons. You disagree with them apparently, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter.

I didn't say ALL capital flows to rich countries only. Giving some examples of foreign investment doesn't mean anything.

 

[kass]

If people going to say that multinational companies are exploiting foreign workers, they need to compare multinational jobs with their LOCAL ALTERNATIVES. Ask the Chinese.

I have read of foreign business creating a factory in some country (cannot remember), and crowds and crowds of people would stand outside all day in the sun and begging just for the chance to work there. Although we can call the company evil for not giving them A/C, or paying them a lot less than we get paid, this situation is fantastic for them. They will then earn a better living, learn new skills, and be able to demand slightly more for their slightly more skilled labor then can then offer. And so on and so on.

 

[Gustavo_Loureiro]

People starving in Africa is nothing new, much of the continent is inhospitable and not fit to support human life.

sarcasm?

 

[Sloan]

Facebook conversation, i'm the bleu text.

WHAT ARE THEY SUCCEEDING AT? I CAN NOT FIND A CLEAR GOAL FOR THIS OCCUPY 'MOVEMENT'. THERE IS NOT A BUSINESS PLAN. WHAT.

WHERE IS THE DOWNLOADABLE PDF MISSION STATEMENT/USER GUIDE???

I've been volunteering in Zuccotti park. As the occupation grows and attracts more media attention, it's become increasingly frustrating to observe how it's moving further and further off of its intended core message of economic injustice.

Too many are preoccupied with provoking the NYPD or over-dramatizing their actions. Some of those that have been arrested and released within 8-48 hours seem to be more concerned, when talking to reporters or through one of the occupation's own media outlets, with garnering counter-culture street cred for sticking it to the pigs than in reiterating a message about the occupiers' understanding of and non-consent to the economic injustices of our times.

At one of the marches, an officer started to arrest someone, and he voluntarily threw himself to the ground rather than trying to run away or slip into the crowd. He scrapped his knee on the pavement, a minor cut of his own doing, and then a chorus erupted around him about how "The NYPD drew first blood!"

Aside from the now infamous macing incident with Anthony Bologna, the NYPD really haven't been very unreasonable. I'd bet that a lot of the protesters from the Arab Spring and even other large events in the US's history would laugh at what many Americans are describing as "police brutality."

Even more disconcertingly, after speaking with several dozen passers-by just yesterday in an attempt to bring them on-board with the movement and to answer their questions about the occupation, I came to realize that the majority of people living, working, and touring in Manhattan's financial district have no clue what we're allegedly trying to raise awareness about.

I had to explain to them that no, this is not primarily a free-Palestine demonstration, or an animal rights demonstration, or an X, Y, or Z demonstration either. Everyone's coming to this thing with their own sacred issues they want to push, all of which may somehow tie into economic justice in one way or another, but all that's doing is confusing the public and turning them off to the occupation.

All that these people see and hear are a sea of seemingly unrelated cardboard protest signs, drum circles, and loud chants about how we're not leaving, ever.

After explaining to many Wall St. employees that it's supposed to be a demonstration against corporate greed at the highest level of executive decision makers, crony capitalism, and government corruption that helps it happen, they generally reacted very positively to the message but don't want to waste time or resources on what they view as an unhelpful channel to deal with it.

‎^thanks for this, that's kind of what I was getting at. Nobody knows exactly WHY this is happening, they need a clear goal on the website. dammit.

Believe it or not, even though that is the only thing non-occupiers want to know before they decide whether or not to join or contribute somehow, that issues is brought up several times daily from various people inside of the group.

And every time it does, a core group of non-leaders (because it's leaderless, right?) who seem to control most of anything important don't only ignore it, but argue against it and dismiss it, essentially deciding for everyone there that there will be no such stated goals. They argue that if we have goals or demands, 'the system' or 'the institutions' and so on will use it against us to marginalize us.

They drafted an absolutely beautiful and passionate statement about all of the injustices that our global governments and corporate forces are responsible for, but the conclusion was roughly that 'we're here and we're not leaving and we're not going to take it anymore!'

And the crowd cheered. But still, nobody there had any clue how we're going to go about not taking it anymore. : /

 

[midget donkeys]

See capitalism works.

[/IMG]

 

[AudioPhile777]

It's gonna end in one of three ways, from best to worst:

1) Everyone gets a free ipad and a couple of hot dogs.

2) WWIII.

3) Total Anarchy, Chaos and Lawlessness.

I guess that would depend on your point of view...

 

[Mago]

It's every man for himself, kick you neighbor in the back and grab his iPad.
While on the way out set some stores on fire and grab some iPads.
Collect money from the government to buy some more iPads.
Win.

 

[ratsapprentice]

sarcasm?

You disagree?

 

[Brandon E.]

Nobody in this thread knows what they're talking about...here's a novel idea. Worry about yourself, your own job, and your own money. You'll be a much happier person, I promise.

 

[MindMunch]

Nobody in this thread knows what they're talking about...here's a novel idea. Worry about yourself, your own job, and your own money. You'll be a much happier person, I promise.

I know. Have been studying and being active in social movements since forever. Lost relatives, incuding my grandfather, fighting the dictatorship in my country.
But I won´t fall for the trolling, I just recommend people here to read some Gramsci because this thread has his concept of "hegemony" written all over it.

And by the way, I´m not a socialist, but I guess that´s what right wing people label anyone who thinks that people should be treated with dignity, pretty much like religious people do by labelling something "uhholy".