Yes, I understand the completely obvious part. I'm inquiring specifically about "dignity."
NYC Protest
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Yes, I understand the completely obvious part. I'm inquiring specifically about "dignity."
Whenever a person states the intrinsic flaws and contradictions of capitalism, it goes like this:
Statement: "State should provide protection and dignity for the workers to prevent abuse from the employers. If the state isn´t doing this job, it´s the people´s duty to protest."
How a rightwing mind works:
If there´s state regulation -> it´s against free-market
If it´s against free market -> it´s anti-capitalism
If it´s anti-capitalism -> it´s socialism
If it´s socialism -> It´s Pol Pot
Conclusion: Protest for a decent working condition is the same as protest for massive killing of anyone who isn´t a peasant.
This is why you always see people dropping "North Korea" and "Mao Tsé Tung" as if they were arguments to refuse any change. It´s a mechanism to refuse to view things on a logical way pretty much like religion do. "Not in Bible? Then it´s wrong."
The reason for this desperate attempt to mantain the status quo is well described by the books Gramsci wrote in prison. I don´t know the english title of the books, but the concept is the cultural hegemony, that is poorly described on wikipedia.
MindMunch, you have been wrong about several things you have said in this thread. It seems you like to discuss these matters, but that involves actual discussion rather than leapfrogging around to different topics you can rant about. It seems people would much rather just complain "in general" than to discuss specific things.
I am wondering what your definition of dignity means, when specifically related to employment. This is a very straightforward question, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything you just posted.
I also asked what specific time period of S Korea you talk about, and if government finances public schools in your country. No answer.
midget donkeys
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I´ve not seen this thread in days because of the obvious trolling. I can discuss anything you want, but it´s very hard for me to explain you everything on a board because you clearly have no clue even on the very basics of what is capitalism and how it works. You´ve said that "me and Marx subscribe to the zero-sum fallacy of economics". Are you really familiar with this concept and game theory, and which authors on this subject you study/follow? We can take from that in PM because I won´t explain how Africa can support human life.
About your questions:
@Dignity: A relationship with ethic and respect. Today the situation is so extreme that Foxconn have anti-suicide nets and "anger rooms". We have workers being more abused than slaves. In the past the masters had to at least provide rest, safety and food for the slaves, otherwise they would die and new slaves were "expensive". Now the companies can make a worker die from exaustion and just get another on the streets to replace him.
@South Korea: 90-2000, but you can analyze the entire period since the 60´s, where a huge part of the population couldn´t even read.
@Public schools on my country: They exist but are incredibly left behind. Terrible quality, not enough teachers, no investment, far from the population, among many many other problems. The same could be said about transport, health and most of public services even though we pay as much taxes as Germany and Canada.
midget donkeys
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Well said MindMunch. I can't stand the no good capitalist swine trolling this thread too.
Power to the people.
Power to the people.
ratsapprentice
God can gtfo
I'd like to respond to this as I think it's referring to me (ignore if it isn't).
My statement regarding Africa's suitability as a habitat shouldn't be read as me trying to interject in the main theme of this thread. I have a very poor/no understanding of economic systems, and was in no way trying to argue for/against anything being discussed itt.
it should have read simply as: "much of Africa is conducive to starvation and death"
And was in response to that photo, which I think ignores the fact that people have starved in extreme environments since they've lived in them.
I'm NOT saying that there aren't ways of avoiding it in the modern era.
However I don't really think that there is a correlation between capitalism and famine.
What am i misunderstanding about the very basics capitalism?
Obviously I am familiar with zero sum fallacy, as I pointed it out.
Have you looked up the amount of capital that is invested in wealthy countries and the corresponding lack of investment in corrupt nations?
Revson
Member
I brought up the Mao comparison to illustrate how it doesn't matter which side of the line you fall, the common man is still going to be treated like garbage. I'm not saying we shouldn't change nor am I saying we should, If you recall in my first post on the page I merely asked how communism/socialism were better than capitalism. You seem to be saying in your posts that capitalism is evil (because it kills children through starvation and obesity, obviously) and needs to change to something else, which is to imply a communist direction. But seriously, how is that less evil than capitalism? That's all I want to know. And if you aren't extolling the virtues of communism, then what route do you suggest the American people take? What's something that has the greatest success of working in a 300 million person country, spread out over 3.8 million square miles, with a few dozen different ethnic groups?
I don´t know what is happening in New York. From the news it seems to me that it´s basically super pissed people without any clear goal, just the general feeling that the government isn´t representing their will like they were supposed to. Maybe this will take another form, maybe it won´t, but it is important for the rest of the population that is unhappy to know that they´re not alone. It´s a spark that shoud not be ignored or dismissed as a bunch of "lazy people" talking nonsense. Ignoring the people will only build pressure and tension until it burst. See what happened in UK a few months ago.
On the other hand, I´m watching what the students in Chile are doing and it´s awesome. They have a clear goal, and they´re taking it on the streets.
same link
That is %GDP.
Look at actual money.
For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI
I fixed the second link.
The percentage of GPD is how you measure the growth, otherwise you´re just measuring "who has more money now", which is a dumb way to see the economic health of a country. This is not investment.
Brazil is one of the 10 richest countries of the world. Does that means it has less corruption than Norway? Or that it´s growing more than Camboja? That people are in better condition than in Sweden?
Sorry, i posted the wrong link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI
The numbers are amount of actual foreign investment, which is what we are talking about. I don't posit that poor countries do not grow. Of course they do, esp. when they allow markets and trade internationally. What I said was that capital tends to flow to wealthy nations, which that link shows that it does.
Compare these two links and you will observe that the amount of foreign investment is generally varies proportionally with GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
no, just as Hong Kong investment doesn't automatically make it rich. We're talking trends. There is a strong inverse correlation between corruption and GDP.
For that purpose, you would look at % GDP increase per year
For that purpose, look at GDP per capita.
AD Chaos
MGTOW
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No it's not.
Capitalism is only as good as it serves people (and motivates them to strive); not when it serves itself and a small and corrupted ruling elite much like the one communism creates.
C'mon, don't buy into the media crap.. OF COURSE they know why they're protesting. Corporate media will obviously go to any lengths to disregard. I suspect that's the same reason why only until now they're finally giving some media coverage to Ron Paul. Perhaps they think it's already too late for him to pose any real threat to corporate interests? now that the primaries in USA are only a couple of weeks away.. Hopefully not.
Btw I'd like to clarify I'm not on some political agenda
it's just I've been following the topic for a while-I would encourage american sneapsters to take a look at the web site of Ron Paul and read on, if they haven't. The guy makes so much sense it's almost absurd.. an honest politician is such a rarity!
Revson
Member
I don't have any strong disagreements with this. In a perfect society everyone would be equal, just like like in a perfect communist/socialist society. Unfortunately, some people are just dicks.
C'mon, don't buy into the media crap.. OF COURSE they know why they're protesting. Corporate media will obviously go to any lengths to disregard. I suspect that's the same reason why only until now they're finally giving some media coverage to Ron Paul. Perhaps they think it's already too late for him to pose any real threat to corporate interests? now that the primaries in USA are only a couple of weeks away.. Hopefully not.
Btw I'd like to clarify I'm not on some political agenda
I would encourage american sneapsters to take a look at the web site of Ron Paul and read on, if they haven't. The guy makes so much sense it's almost absurd.. an honest politician is such a rarity!
This is where I start disagreeing. They know they're angry about something, but they don't have any goals to define what they're protesting against. They just know they don't like people being rich and people being poor and then they come up with something like this. If the group had leaders (which they oppose) then they could have a defined movement that will ultimately unite them and could cause some success, as opposed to alienating passerby's interested in the movement but only receiving confused answers to their questions. Until some sort of organization happens within the movement they're just going to be disregarded.
On the topic of Ron Paul, I liked him a lot (especially in the 2008 election) until I found out he was a 9/11 truther. After that I could not be a part of what he stood for, but that's an entirely different subject for an entirely different time and I won't discuss that in this thread any longer.
I think my biggest grievance with this movement is that they're only after businessmen and women who appear to right wing. Why aren't they protesting movie studios in Hollywood that make several billion dollars a year? Why aren't they protesting actors, like Susan Sarandon, that make several million per movie while P.A.'s work 12 hour shifts only to go wait tables to afford a bite to eat. Say what you will about corporations but at least they typically pay their interns. And yes, I have a close friend that has been working as an assistant to a major Hollywood producer/director for over a year and hasn't been paid.
AD Chaos
MGTOW
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It's not about having a perfectly equal society. A one without gross corruption levels should suffice 
You know Ron Paul is consistent when he defends his views -even when unpopular. I personally don't think denouncing corruption and asking for transparency to be a bad thing..
And why would you want protesters to attack Hollywood? (about the only produce in the US still generating large international revenue and a sociocultural impact)
You know Ron Paul is consistent when he defends his views -even when unpopular. I personally don't think denouncing corruption and asking for transparency to be a bad thing..
And why would you want protesters to attack Hollywood? (about the only produce in the US still generating large international revenue and a sociocultural impact)
midget donkeys
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Thanks for posting that link to the list Revson. It made for a great morning read.
My favorite demands:
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
__________
Somebody sign me up for this. I totally want to be paid to not work and to have all the money I have borrowed for my house erased. No work and free money, what could be better?
My favorite demands:
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
__________
Somebody sign me up for this. I totally want to be paid to not work and to have all the money I have borrowed for my house erased. No work and free money, what could be better?
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