"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

[speed]

I am in total agreement with Black Winter day, the death of one innocent civilian is an atrocity that no cause can justify.

I blame Nationalism for most of our current problems. before the advent of nationalism in the middle east, as well as the west, it would have been unheard of for any muslim to kill innocent civilians. Hell look at the Ottoman EMpire, Jews, Greeks, Serbs all were left alone religiously and not killed. Iran's revolution was a western revolution, the killing and jailing of innocents- nd anybody related to the shah. this is not a islamic idea, but merely a byproduct of imported western ideals.

Because of nationalism total war has been justified, Hitler was justified, Bush has been justified. Why do the Palestinians deserve their own country? They never had a country before British occupation. What does a country have to do with Iraq? It was never a country.

Terrorists are a toxic mix of western anarchism/nationalism and fundamentalist Islam- which was created in reaction to the increased power of the west in the Middle East in the 19th century.

Ok I ve written another rambling diatribe. Sorry.

 

[JayKeeley]

I blame Nationalism for most of our current problems. before the advent of nationalism in the middle east, as well as the west, it would have been unheard of for any muslim to kill innocent civilians.

That's a bizarre statement, considering how Islam (or most religion) was founded.

I am in total agreement with Black Winter day, the death of one innocent civilian is an atrocity that no cause can justify.

Well, ok, but that's a contradiction to this...

Hitler was justified, Bush has been justified.

The argument might be made that innocents die in war. Hitler was at war. Bush is at war. Well, to me, this isn't any different to Palestine. Just because Palestine don't have a conventional army doesn't mean they're not at war. And since America sides with Israel, the Arab world will resent America.

I'm sure if the Spanish, say, were supplying arms to the British when America fought for its independence, then America would take issue with Spain.

Why do the Palestinians deserve their own country? They never had a country before British occupation.

Not sure what footnotes you're reading but this is an odd statement to say the least. Israel was given its land due to reparations from WW2. The British just carved up the place and handed it all over, and fucked the Palestinians royally. Hell, just look at Africa. Total carve up with total lack of respect to tribal territory.

And even before you get into the debate as to what rights a Palestinian has, be aware of the fact that Palestinian homes are being demolished by Israel at a weekly rate. AT MINIMUM, this would be enough for Palestinian people to retaliate.

If you have HBO, watch the documentary that's currently being aired called "Death in Gaza". It discusses how bulldozers and tanks come into Palestinian territory and just wipe out houses and buildings in one fel swoop. It's also the same documentary that ended with the producer being shot dead by an Israeli military officer, even after announcing that the crew were British TV journalists.

Yes, it's a British documentary, so you might see a different perspective to the usual American pro-Jew version of what goes on in the Gaza strip.

What does a country have to do with Iraq? It was never a country.

I'm not sure if I understand this statement.

Terrorists are a toxic mix of western anarchism/nationalism and fundamentalist Islam- which was created in reaction to the increased power of the west in the Middle East in the 19th century.

What? How does this account for the IRA? Tamil Tigers? ETA? None of these terrorist groups have anything to do with Islam.

 

[speed]

Perhaps my statements were anything but clear and they are my own strange take on the situation, which is based primarily on history. Hell I dont know anyone else but arabs who think it would be a good idea to unite arabs into a single Islamic state as it was before. Perhaps I have been too influenced by arabs views of the situation.

I was blaming nationalism for justifiying the killing of civilians- total war, revolution etc. I was not justifying nationalism, in fact I was arguing against it. I see the mixture of nationalism ( which allows any act no matter how despicable if it furthers the nation) with radical Islam as a horrible thing indeed.

I am blaming nationalism for the problems of the middle east. This is why I was stating Palestine was never a country, nor was Iraq. The Islamic conception of country is not ours, they base loyaties on Islam- not tribes, or race, or anything else. When nationalism was introduced in the 19th century by the Western powers who later divied up the Ottoman Empire, it created countries that were not countries with all the faith in the "nation" that Western countries have . It also forced muslims to accept the principals of western nationalism and ideology- war, etc.

I think the situation in Palestine would be much better if the arab countries that fought in the six days war didnt abandon Palestine and her people. Only Jordan granted Palestinians citizenship. In fact the war fractured pan arab relations to the point that they are all feuding duchys with no foward thinking, or cohesive foreign policy. Thus without the backing from the arabs, Palestine is left on her own, with nothing to guide her, but a revolution and terrorism half based on western nationalism, and half based on islam.

 

[speed]

Interestingly both the Tamils and the problems in Northern Ireland are directly connected to religion and the sudden rise of nationalism. The Tamils were immediatly oppressed by the majority buddhist Sinhalese on the creation of their country. The catholic irish were oppressed by the Protestant Irish and English, and the fact they were denied their own ambitions for a totally catholic country.

 

[Ayeka]

Why do the Palestinians deserve their own country? They never had a country before British occupation.

I'd've thought the fact they were living on that turf for xthousand years would justify it...

I'm quite surprised to see that Death In Gaza has made it over to America. I watched that on Channel 4 over here, very interesting. Of course you get a one-sided view of the situation, but that's the point of the documentary - getting the views of the little people. Their desperation is very much highlighted when they use the journalist as a matyr against his crew's wishes - they pick up on every injustice they can to get their point through. Can't really blame 'em when you see the shit they live in.