Output tracks in Reaper

[kernelxsanders]

Hey guys, I've been working on a new project that includes a shit ton of layered guitars, and i am trying to come across a loop hole for getting around all the CPU usage. For each guitar track, i have it's own dedicated chain, however, the chains are essentially duplicated.

Now let's say i have 4 guitar tracks, two rhythm and two lead/melody, and they share the same fx chain. Just those 4 guitar chains eat up over half of my CPU, and wouldn't it make sense to just have ONE track with the fx chain and the 4 guitar tracks to be routed to that one output track?

I understand how this should be done in Reaper (at least i think so) because i do the same thing with vocal tracks, and other applications of this method. BUT when i go for it with guitars, something about it just doesn't work. It's all mono, in the sense that when i pan it to the left, it does nothing, but when i pan to the right, it brings the gain down to where it mutes the track. That's when i solo the output track. When i solo the output track + guitar DI tracks, it blends the DIs with the Out track, and when the DI levels are brought down, it lowers the signal to the Out track, as one would expect, thus rendering the Out track as useless.

How would i get the guitar DIs to become inaudible while still sending a healthy audio signal to the Output track, and how to i even get the Output track to work properly so i can send multiple tracks to it and pan them how i want?!

Has anyone else come across this problem? Or maybe this is one of those things that is pretty noobish that i have yet to come across in Reaper, but MAN THIS IS KILLING ME! I KNOW THERE IS A WAY TO GET IT DONE!

Cheers
-Daniel

 

[bryan_kilco]

I have the same problem. I think you have to set your Sends/Receives as "Post Fader"? I forget now. I just know I had issues with it, resulting in copy/pasting the FX chains for all guitars.

 

[Uros]

why dont you just print them?

 

[Nimvi]

Sounds like you have a mono plugin on that output track. Deactivate plugins on there one by one to see which one is the problem.

Also, about the blending of the sounds; are you creating sends from the DI tracks to the outputtrack manually? If so, you probably have to go the input/output menu of the DI tracks and disable "Master/Parent Send". What this does is send the signal of a track to another track, without being audible on the original track itself.
Btw, look into the "folder" options for grouping tracks in Reaper if you haven't. I personally find that much more organized to work with for stuff like this.

But yea, like Uros said, rendering the individual tracks is probably a better idea in the long run. More individual control

 

[kernelxsanders]

@Uros, I used to print my tracks before when i ran on a less efficient system, but tbh, I always hated it because it just seems like unnecessary work having to sit there while they print every 5 minutes that you want to make a change to it. like if i want to make changes to the kick drum, i have to make that change, then re-print everything else and make changes to the rest of the tracks accordingly, and vice versa and all that hectic nonsense. I like to be able to mess with the chains while listening back and all that, and printing limits that ability unless you do one track at a time, which defeats the purpose of mixing IMO. I mean, it works when you have a system that can't run more than 2 or 3 fx chains at once so that is kinda the only option, but when you have the option not to, i'd like to find the real solution as opposed to a simple loop hole. (i understand i said i was looking for a loop hole in the OP, i really meant to use the word "Solution").

@Nimvi, It isn't due to mono effects, or at least shouldn't be. Before i posted the OP, i went through and made sure the effects were stereo, but that didn't seem to do anything.

And if you mean "manually" as in adding a new track, then clicking on the send/receive window and adding them that way, then yes, that is how i do it. Now, I disabled the "Master/Parent Send" and that fixed the blending of the tracks, as well as the issue of muting the track when i pan it to the right. Now, the farther i pan it, it just drops the post gain by only a few dB instead of the pre gain all the way to mute. Maybe that is just how mono works, but either way, I'm getting a signal which is what i was looking for, so thank you for that tip.

Also, i do indeed keep every track in a "folder" and i agree, it helps a lot with organization, as i like everything to be as organized as possible. My monitor is pretty small, i believe 16", and if i want to view another track, i hate scrolling down for years, when i can just compact the folder, so that feature rocks.

EDIT: I went back a second time and did each effect individually to check the mono/stereo status. When i have the ampsim on, and only the ampsim, it is in stereo and i hear each track panned just how i want them. BUT when i turn on LeCab, it goes back to mono even though i have it set to stereo.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I create stereo busses for Rhythm Guitars, Lead Guitars and Solo Guitars. Each chain for me is different as my EQ, compression and saturation based effects tend to vary specifically for each type of track. Then for automation, I automate the busses, not the individual tracks.

An better organized system would be to print your guitars by category to stereo Rhythm, Lead, Solo and just do the processing there if each group has its own separate chain/settings. If you are using the same settings for all the guitars, send all the tracks to one buss, and if you have headroom sensitive effects, just put those effects in the stereo printed tracks and then send them to the buss for additional processing.

There are many more ways to do it depending on how you want to set up the signal chain, but Busses can be your friend.

 

[FarBeyondMetal]

Couldn't you just freeze the tracks? I like to dial in the basic amp sound and freeze the tracks, then do all my extra processing ontop of the frozen tracks. This way your CPU isn't computing the amp and cab sim, just EQ and whatever else you use.

 

[kernelxsanders]

@TheWinterSnow, That's essentially the same thing i am doing, minus the printing. And for automation, it makes sense to do it on the tracks in which the FX chains are applied to, i.e., the buss. In my case, i have 2 rhythm guitars with the same fx, 2 leads/melodies with similar settings, but with slightly lower gain and delay/verb, and 2 clean guitars.

Really, I mean not to be stubborn and i appreciate any tips that are given to me, but printing tracks is the last thing i want to do. Too many reason for that, and it just makes the project that much more difficult when i do it.

 

[Nimvi]

Glad you are making progress on the problem I've not used lecab too many times, but the last time I used it in a similar setup, I had problems with the stereo mode as well. Only in my case, the right channel was distorting uncontrollably for some reason I couldn't figure out at that point... so not really sure what to do there either. I take it you have panned the 2 channels of lecab left and right and set the mode to independent, instead of blend?

Btw, I don't render everything either. Like you said, that would kind of defeat the purpose. What I do is render the basic midi and emulation elements, so the mix becomes like a mix of a microphone recordings. Drummachines, synths and guitar amp emulators eat a shit-ton of CPU, so after I find something I like, I just stick to it and render those few tracks. It's a personal choice though. I try to keep my fall-back options to a minimum, because I easily over-think things and start to get nervous.

 

[Uros]

^^well, that's the point - finding something you like and sticking with it, 'cause it will make you a better mixer in the end, because it forces you to work with what you've got. Over-analyzing is one of a few serious workflow killers, so to speak.
Constantly changing your mind on things, never-ending tweaking back and forth between mix elements is counter productive, it's that simple.

 

[Nimvi]

^ Jup, I have only started seriously doing this a year or 2 ago, and to me it feels like one of the biggest improvements I've experienced in mixing so far. For some reason, when things are "final", you start to listen to them differently. And especially for people of a fairly compulsive nature (like me...) it can give you peace instead of a jittery mind.

The other thing I really wish I had started doing earlier was mixing in mono (switching back and forth)...that shit is insanely powerful. EQ and balance has been so much easier ever since. It's one of those things that you hear from a 100 people, but you have to discover them for yourself.

Anyway, getting offtopic

 

[kernelxsanders]

I take it you have panned the 2 channels of lecab left and right and set the mode to independent, instead of blend?

This is what i didn't do beforehand. i went along with that, and it worked. Lecab now uses twice as much cpu as before, but it is in stereo now.

Now what i'd like to know is what Onqel means when he says his other vst's are stereo processed. For instance, his TS808 vst claims to be stereo, however, it is mono. So i am using the podfarm TS as a boost now because it works in stereo.

 

[Nimvi]

This is what i didn't do beforehand. i went along with that, and it worked. Lecab now uses twice as much cpu as before, but it is in stereo now.

Now what i'd like to know is what Onqel means when he says his other vst's are stereo processed. For instance, his TS808 vst claims to be stereo, however, it is mono. So i am using the podfarm TS as a boost now because it works in stereo.

Heh, that was a lucky guess on my part For TS808 you can make it stereo by clicking the symbol of the 2 connected rings. It is in mono mode by default.

EDIT: Just noticed it's not 2 connected rings, but a dot with waves coming from it, on the top, next to the quality setting.

 

[kernelxsanders]

Thanks again for that, i thought i clicked everything that was clickable on there but i guess not haha.

 

[Nimvi]

Very welcome! I'll see the box of cookies arrive in the mail then?

 

[kernelxsanders]

I hope you like Thin Mints

 

[Nimvi]

 

[RedDog]

And if you mean "manually" as in adding a new track, then clicking on the send/receive window and adding them that way, then yes, that is how i do it. Now, I disabled the "Master/Parent Send" and that fixed the blending of the tracks, as well as the issue of muting the track when i pan it to the right. Now, the farther i pan it, it just drops the post gain by only a few dB instead of the pre gain all the way to mute. Maybe that is just how mono works, but either way, I'm getting a signal which is what i was looking for, so thank you for that tip.

Check your Pan Law settings if you find the dropping of signal level to be too much of a problem.

Play around with the routing matrix and the in-out pins on your plugin window (non-floated). I once figured out a way to use one EQ for a stereo track, and it could probably do more in a multichannel configuration.

 

[Habsburgs]

i dont think ampsims can play 4 tracks at the same time

 

[kernelxsanders]

i dont think ampsims can play 4 tracks at the same time

this is the only problem i'm having, i was playing around with the two tracks being ran by one amp, then noodling around with a 3rd track, and its like that signal was blending with one of the other signals.

anywho, i got the problem solved as far as everything else.