Pluggin in gear/computer into non grounded outlets

[Ericlingus]

Have any of you guys run into this problem before? I have two outlets in my room and one has 3 pronged(grounded) outlets and the other has only 2 pronged(ungrounded). I can't reach the grounded outlet so my computer and gear are going into an APC surge protector/back up battery unit and then into a 3 to 2 pronged adapter and then into the 2 pronged outlet. Of course the APC sayd "Site Wiring Fault". It works fine and passed the self tests but I know it is certainly not ideal. There must have been some of you guys with old houses you have run into this issue before. What did you do? I've been running my gear like this for 8 years with no issues but my gear is expanding and I'm worried now after ignoring the issue.
I tested the outlets with a an outlet tester and it shows that both the outlets are grounded(on the 2 pronged outlet I inserted the prong into the receptacle and the other prong onto the middle faceplate screw) So you think the 2 pronged outlet is still grounded and just not updated with a grounded outlet? That would be sweet since I wouldnt have to run a ground wire through the house which I obviously could not do myself and would cost lots of money.
The weird thing is that the surge protector still says "Site Wiring Fault" even on the grounded outlet. I even tester a couple others in the house and it says the same thing....So either they are not grounded properly or they have reversed polarity or something.

On a similar topic, have you guys run an extension cord on your rackmounted power conditioners? Is that safe to do? If so which type of extension cord do I need? I'm assuming one that has a grounded connecter and is at least 12 gauge wire? I really don't want my gear to blow up...or me for that matter.

 

[Jormyn]

Not having a ground pin will only ever be an issue if something goes wrong and you have a short-circuit. Normally, the ground would give this short a path to (duh) the ground, your circuit breaker would pop, everyone's happy. Without a ground, that short won't pop the breaker, so you won't know it's there until some part of the circuit (a guitar, a speaker cable, a computer case) touches something that IS grounded, like you, or metal furniture, etc. At that point, you're getting a lovely shock and/or starting a fire.

I lived in an ungrounded house for several years and just cut the ground off a couple of extension cords, and nothing bad happened. Safety says you should just run everything from the grounded outlet though. A grounded cord, 14-gauge minimum will be fine unless you have a ridiculous amount of gear. If you do, sure, go with #12.

If your APC is giving you weird readings even on the grounded outlets, though, you might want to check if they actually ARE grounded. Shut off the power, open one of them up, and you should see three wires coming from the cabling in the wall to the box - colors vary depending on where you live, but in Canada these would most likely be Black, White, and Copper. If the receptacle only has two wires attached to it, then whoever did the electrical in your house is using that receptacle as a grounded-->ungrounded adapter and you should punch them in the face for putting you in danger.

 

[Ericlingus]

I have a feeling something stupid was done like using neutral as a ground.

 

[dominus_malas]

You weren't very clear about the APC unit showing a wiring fault. Is that in the 2 prong outlet with the adapter? Plug it into the 3 prong outlet and check it.

The two prong is NOT grounded.

As long as the APC unit shows the 3 prong outlet as functioning properly, run an extension cord to that outlet and plug the APC into that.

 

[Ericlingus]

that's the problem. The light goes off in all the outlets downstairs whether they are 3 prong or not which leads me to believe that the outlets arn't really grounded properly or something else is wrong.

 

[dominus_malas]

Yup, they're not grounded then. I had an old house and had to install a few grounded outlets, at least one per room. Running a ground wire is really important, at least for the electronics you care about.

 

[Ericlingus]

well like I said, I hope the 2 pronged outlet in my room still has a ground wire and it just wasnt updated to a 3 prong. When I test the outlet by having one prong on the tester in the receptacle and the other in the middle outlet plate screw, it lights up which would suggest its grounded somehow.

 

[westom]

When I test the outlet by having one prong on the tester in the receptacle and the other in the middle outlet plate screw, it lights up which would suggest its grounded somehow.

First appreciate a fundamental concept. Neither that outlet tester nor power strip can report a receptacle properly wired. Each can only report a defect. Do not let one reporting something (apparently) good cause you confusion. If either reports a failure, than a defect exists - without doubt.

Inspect is one solution. For example, a safety ground wire should exist separately from the neutral wire. And connect to electrically different points. Same applies in the breaker box. The wire to its circuit breaker must have a bare copper (third) wire that connects to the bus bar. If either do not exist, then a defect does exist.

Safety ground in a receptacle is mostly for human safety. If it does not exist, then code is quite blunt about it. Your only other alternative is a GFCI.

Best way to find this defect is a voltmeter. Simply power some larger appliance (ie toaster, vacuum cleaner) from the receptacle. Then measure AC voltage between the safety ground prong and neutral wire prong. A voltage above zero and less than 2 volts must exist. If not, then be concerned for what may have been some idiot with contempt for human life.

 

[Ericlingus]

Here is an update: The wiring is from the 50s and it has two wires wrapped in a cloth like material. The box itself is grounded. I checked when an outlet tester by placing one of its prongs on the middle faceplate screw and in one of the receptacle slots. I used a 3 go 2 prong adapter and screwed the tab into the middle face plate using the faceplate screw. When I plugged in my surge protector (APC backUPS LS700) the light to the "Building Wiring Fault" no longer went off. Is this okay now?

 

[westom]

The wiring is from the 50s and it has two wires wrapped in a cloth like material. The box itself is grounded. I checked when an outlet tester by placing one of its prongs on the middle faceplate screw and in one of the receptacle slots.

It was stated in the first sentence in the first paragraph in my previous post. Do not ignore what you did not grasp. Again, 1) an outlet tester cannot say anything is good. It can only report some types of failures. 2) Your box cannot be grounded if the incoming cable has only two wires. 3)Your box would not be grounded if 1950s cloth wire was not replace with post 1970 wire. In fact, you have probably defined a major human safety defect created by someone who made changes without first learning basic concepts.

Get an electrician ASAP. Because some symptoms of that defect (in other venues) resulted in someone being electrocuted in a shower. This is not something to ignore. The fault would not occur even for years, and then suddenly ...

You have no safety ground. If you do not get an electrician immediately, then replace the breaker box circuit breaker with a GFCI type ... immediately. What you have described cannot exist if wiring was done in a safe manner.

 

[Kazrog]

Grounding is critical. I was recently doing some recordings of vintage tube amps that lacked a ground plug for an upcoming Recabinet/Thermionik expansion. I had my Reamp box plugged into the front of one of the amps, and I needed to make a quick gain adjustment on the Reamp. The current being carried over the guitar cable between the input of the amp and the output of the Reamp box was enough to send a huge shock through my arm when I touched the metal chassis of the Reamp box in an effort to adjust the gain.

I was lucky, but the pain in my arm lasted the rest of the day, and I felt shaken. Flipping the plug prevented the issue from happening again, but we have grounds for a reason.

 

[dominus_malas]

Grounding is critical. I was recently doing some recordings of vintage tube amps that lacked a ground plug for an upcoming Recabinet/Thermionik expansion. I had my Reamp box plugged into the front of one of the amps, and I needed to make a quick gain adjustment on the Reamp. The current being carried over the guitar cable between the input of the amp and the output of the Reamp box was enough to send a huge shock through my arm when I touched the metal chassis of the Reamp box in an effort to adjust the gain.

I was lucky, but the pain in my arm lasted the rest of the day, and I felt shaken. Flipping the plug prevented the issue from happening again, but we have grounds for a reason.

So the expression "even if it kills me" can be applicable to Amp Sim development.

 

[Ericlingus]

I emailed the company that makes my UPS surge protector/backup battery and they said as long as the "site wiring fault" light does not go on then it will protect everything plugged into it.

 

[westom]

I emailed the company that makes my UPS surge protector/backup battery and they said as long as the "site wiring fault" light does not go on then it will protect everything plugged into it.

Protect from what? A UPS protects unsaved data from destruction by a blackout. Yes it will do that even if a major human safety defect exists.

UPS does not claim to protect hardware. UPS does not claim to protect human life. That email reply would be from a sales droid - not from an engineer with decades of experience. Which one should have more credibility? The one who says something without any reasons to believe him? Of the other who obvious does this stuff.

Don't take my word for it. Anything that UPS claims to protect from will be defined by a number. Not some subjective expression. A number from its numeric specs. Legal is to lie subjectively in sales propaganda. Not legal is to lie in spec numbers. So again, what does it claim to protect from? What number defines each protection feature?

Defined in the previous post is why that UPS light (and outlet tester) would not report a potentially serious human safety threat. Threat was defined with multiple reasons why you know it exists (ie only two wires in a cloth cable). What did the UPS sales droid say to each reason? Or did he just ignore facts to recite their usual mantra?

Your reasoning is why people, in rare cases, die.

 

[AD Chaos]

A number of years ago I had ungrouded electrical outlets and they'd basically burn motherboards/RAM sticks/pedals/synths etc. I looked around a lot for a competent enough electrician but could never find one. Ended up doing the work with some guy that didn't seem as clueless as the rest. Not 'fake' grounds inside the outlet, but the whole copper bar thing buried deep in the yard, etc.

Sure enough a gardener (who I think didn't like me very much ) ended up cutting the wire and the protections we placed around it, but in any case my problem ended when I plugged everything on two Furman units. I think mine was not a ground issue but rather power surges/occasional variations in the voltage, that even if not very big (not big enough to blow the fuse on a surge protector) can make cumulative damage to sensible electronics overtime (or so I've been told, anyway).

I had an APC backup battery/surge protector/etc once, too, but the thing caught on fire on its insides.. Luckily, I was there when it happened (I didn't have anything running at the time, yet the APC was plugged onto the wall, and switched on).
FWIW, mine also complained about 'Site Wiring Fault', even when we checked the grounding was properly set.
That thing cost me a lot, weighed a ton, I had to take it to an APC office for battery replacement, and in the end it nearly set the room on fire.. no more APC for me, thanks.

The Furman rack units have served me well for years now, I think they're much more purpose-built than the APC contraption, and much cheaper in comparison. I haven't had any damage since using them.

On a similar topic, have you guys run an extension cord on your rackmounted power conditioners? Is that safe to do? If so which type of extension cord do I need? I'm assuming one that has a grounded connecter and is at least 12 gauge wire? I really don't want my gear to blow up...or me for that matter.

It is safe so long as you buy grounded extensions from a proper store. Just don't use cheapo, flimsy extensions meant for Christmas decoration, and you'll be fine.

 

[Ericlingus]

There is some soft of coating over the two wires. Maybe it's not cloth. I was told it was an old way to ground wires though. The outlet box itself is grounded. I have a M-8x2 furman power conditioner that I use for everything except my computer equipment. Which power conditioner do you have? Is it the really expensive ones? Also, my APC no longer says site wiring fault ever since I used a cheater plug with the tab attached to the outlet plate screw. You said yours did?

 

[AD Chaos]

I have a M-8x2 furman power conditioner that I use for everything except my computer equipment. Which power conditioner do you have? Is it the really expensive ones? Also, my APC no longer says site wiring fault ever since I used a cheater plug with the tab attached to the outlet plate screw. You said yours did?

I have an M-80x one for small stuff like pedals and multieffects, and for the more important things (desktop PC, FF800, tubes, iSP, etc), a more expensive one.
Tbh I don't remember if my APC unit ever stopped showing that software warning on the computer, but I remembered it used to, when you mentioned it.

The APC manual did advice against using the APC along with another power conditioner unit like a Furman, which I did at some point. So, it may have been a mistake on my part, but it's not like I had an insane amount of things turned on at the same time ever, anyway.

What I do nowadays is each Furman goes connected to a separate outlet on opposite walls, each to an independent switch on the fuse box downstairs.
Again, not that I ever turn on a ridiculous amount of power hungry items all at once; I just do it more as a measure of precaution/peace of mind.

 

[egan.]

There is some soft of coating over the two wires. Maybe it's not cloth. I was told it was an old way to ground wires though. The outlet box itself is grounded. I have a M-8x2 furman power conditioner that I use for everything except my computer equipment. Which power conditioner do you have? Is it the really expensive ones? Also, my APC no longer says site wiring fault ever since I used a cheater plug with the tab attached to the outlet plate screw. You said yours did?

The cloth coating is most likely asbestos.
I think what's being said is that yes, old fashioned outlets work but no amount or quality of UPS, surge protector or A/C cable is going to make up for out of code and ungrounded wiring, outlets or breakers.

 

[Ericlingus]

well like I said the box itself is grounded so there is a ground. Not ideal but it's better than none at all. Here is an article about the situation I have.

http://www.structuretech1.com/2009/01/converting-two-prong-outlets/

I'm going to get an electrician to come over soon (I hope) and see what he thinks.

 

[westom]

well like I said the box itself is grounded so there is a ground.

Does not matter what is observed. APC can only report some defects. And can never report good wiring. This example demonstrates why junk science reasoning is widespread. If it is not bad, then it must be good? Not for one minute. APC only says it does not see a bad condition ... on a receptacle that remains a human safety issue. Only junk science reasoning assumes a binary world; that the circuit must be good (grounded) because it is not bad. Junk science reasoning assumes if APC says good, then the receptacle is not bad.

BTW, what the APC or Furman might do is already inside all electronics. For example, voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Voltage that low can be harmful to motorized appliances. And is a perfectly good voltage for all electronics due to what must already exist in electronics.

An APC warranty also said their protector warranty is void if protectors from any other company (ie Furman) exist anywhere in the house. Does that say anything technically useful? Of course not. APC also does not say why a Furman must not be used with their products. You cannot assume using both together causes any problems. It was not destructive. It only meant less APC sales. Never assume "do not do this" is for technical reasons.

Solution for that receptacle is to disconnect its safety ground prong from what is probably connected to a neutral wire. Then install a GFCI on that circuit or in the breaker box. Strongly recommended is a GFCI in box. Since contempt for human life by someone previous is probably not limited to that receptacle.

A receptacle properly wired (to meet code) means a safety ground is floating. A missing safety ground that exists with the code compliant GFCI solution does not damage electronics Cumulative damage is another popular junk science myth.