Are political parties motivated by power for its own sake, and are they only pretending to be interested in governing in the best interests of the people?
Excerpt from George Orwell's "1984"
Excerpt from George Orwell's "1984"
Power for its own Sake
- Thread starter Norsemaiden
- Start date
Seditious
GodSlayer
'for the people's sake'? probably not
'for it's own sake'? probably not, either... at least, no more than Bill Gates wants 'money for it's own sake'.
'for it's own sake'? probably not, either... at least, no more than Bill Gates wants 'money for it's own sake'.
That's somewhat unrelated, but I'm surprised someone with political views like yours would appreciate Orwell...
Orwell didn't appreciate the inescapable value of kinship, but he had a lot of good ideas all the same.
A government that is of its own people, in an ethnically loyal State, would be unlikely to exploit those people. While a government that did not feel at one with the people would certainly exploit them, and see little other reason for bothering to govern at all other than to enjoy the fruits of power.
The present governments nearly everywhere in the world are controlled by corporate money and corporations are only interested in profit.
I thought about this book when I read the thread title:
Summary:
http://www.uky.edu/PR/News/Archives/2002/March2002/monkeyleaders.htm
Text:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=ja&lr=&id=WWCZuYw_0dIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP15&dq=%22Ludwig%22+%22King+of+the+Mountain:+The+Nature+of+Political+Leadership%22+&ots=0DEPgA30N6&sig=BIGG1AMD9aTbFZN_rdkDdN_FX-E
Summary:
http://www.uky.edu/PR/News/Archives/2002/March2002/monkeyleaders.htm
Text:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=ja&lr=&id=WWCZuYw_0dIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP15&dq=%22Ludwig%22+%22King+of+the+Mountain:+The+Nature+of+Political+Leadership%22+&ots=0DEPgA30N6&sig=BIGG1AMD9aTbFZN_rdkDdN_FX-E
Nobody seeks power for its own sake. They're using it to gain wealth and influence in an attempt to forge self-worth. It makes them lonely, empty, hollow people.
I would be fascinated to hear what everyone posting here thinks Orwell actually meant when he used the term "power for its own sake", since I think of it as meaning pretty much what death metal black metal said
Hmmm that gets me thinking that the kind of people who would feel the most urgent need to get in such a position would be those who have experienced being prevented from practicing their particular behaviour because it has provoked outrage in the population - historically often resulting in their people being rooted out.
. In addition to this, it is just the satisfaction of being on top and having the ability to push others around, without risk of being the ones who are oppressed/exterminated.
Hmmm that gets me thinking that the kind of people who would feel the most urgent need to get in such a position would be those who have experienced being prevented from practicing their particular behaviour because it has provoked outrage in the population - historically often resulting in their people being rooted out.
I think there's great variation. Ralph Nader probably isn't interested in obtaining absolute power, while Kim Jong Il doesn't give a flying fuck about the environment. On the other hand, as vikk implied, if Ralph Nader actually won, he probably would end up like every other rich motherfucker in a fancy suit.
Death metal black metal said that people seek power to gain wealth, but what is wealth if not power? The power to live in luxury, to control people and live a life not bound by the laws of others? THAT is power, and that is what money brings. So anyone who sets out to get rich just wants power, in one form or another. I don't think you can tack political ambition down to a lust for cash.
I think Orwell was right; in the end, they just want power for it's own sake. If you've ever been in a situation where you had power over someone else, you would know that the feeling you get is pretty damn satisfying. Therefore, I would disagree with what death metal black metal said about politicians and such being lonely, hollow, empty people. I think that they actually find power quite rewarding. This isn't to say that this is good and right. Those motherfuckers deserve to be strapped to a missile and tossed out of a plane. But the feeling of telling someone to do something and watching them scramble to do it is definitely quite satsfying.
As for what you said about finding self worth...I think we all try to find meaning in whatever we do...they get their feeling of self-worth from exploiting the poor, others might get theirs from...idk, making good chicken. Whatever. In other words, trying to forge self worth from what you do isn't unique to the power hungry, and it isn't a bad thing. But it would be nice if those assholes wouldn't feel good about it.
Uh...so, I think what you're trying to say is that people who have been persecuted or come from a culture that has been persecuted or the victim of genocide often feel a need for power in order to vindicate themselves and their people? Because...I agree with that...but I can't tell if that's actually what you are saying...
Death metal black metal said that people seek power to gain wealth, but what is wealth if not power? The power to live in luxury, to control people and live a life not bound by the laws of others? THAT is power, and that is what money brings. So anyone who sets out to get rich just wants power, in one form or another. I don't think you can tack political ambition down to a lust for cash.
I think Orwell was right; in the end, they just want power for it's own sake. If you've ever been in a situation where you had power over someone else, you would know that the feeling you get is pretty damn satisfying. Therefore, I would disagree with what death metal black metal said about politicians and such being lonely, hollow, empty people. I think that they actually find power quite rewarding. This isn't to say that this is good and right. Those motherfuckers deserve to be strapped to a missile and tossed out of a plane. But the feeling of telling someone to do something and watching them scramble to do it is definitely quite satsfying.
As for what you said about finding self worth...I think we all try to find meaning in whatever we do...they get their feeling of self-worth from exploiting the poor, others might get theirs from...idk, making good chicken. Whatever. In other words, trying to forge self worth from what you do isn't unique to the power hungry, and it isn't a bad thing. But it would be nice if those assholes wouldn't feel good about it.
Uh...so, I think what you're trying to say is that people who have been persecuted or come from a culture that has been persecuted or the victim of genocide often feel a need for power in order to vindicate themselves and their people? Because...I agree with that...but I can't tell if that's actually what you are saying...
Yes that is just about it - except "prosecuted" could be a better word than the old cliche of "persecuted".
People who demand that they get everything they want, no matter how unreasonable, may accuse those who resist of "persecuting" them, but that is a very subjective opinion.
Why wouldn't they? They have the most to benefit from exploiting the population, and as Norsemaiden said:
I can say I definitely agree with you. They can wreak havoc on people, too busy within their own lives due the fact of different social pressures:
1. Economic
2. Family
3. Ethnic
Studies have been posted that a mixed populace will always have a certain distrust of one another while a different ethnicity is living within the said community. Which breaks down family barriers and economic barriers we we've been seeing with the Mexican flight to the US. People are too concerned with material values to think about their rights.
I think it is within the interests of our President to maintain a good amount of power, he can attain fortune from Lobbyists and Oil barons for favors. All the while destroying the environment and letting the proverbial, flood gates open.
I can say I definitely agree with you. They can wreak havoc on people, too busy within their own lives due the fact of different social pressures:
1. Economic
2. Family
3. Ethnic
Studies have been posted that a mixed populace will always have a certain distrust of one another while a different ethnicity is living within the said community. Which breaks down family barriers and economic barriers we we've been seeing with the Mexican flight to the US. People are too concerned with material values to think about their rights.
I think it is within the interests of our President to maintain a good amount of power, he can attain fortune from Lobbyists and Oil barons for favors. All the while destroying the environment and letting the proverbial, flood gates open.
They're not thinking about the future. The best state would be an organic one composed of like people, although not identical ones, as that way you don't need government CONTROL to force people to do some bureaucratic "right."
Homogenous cultures aren't really the answer, because that leads to hostile interactions with other cultures. The key is diversity to the extent that no ethnicity has dominance over the others.
If you believe that... you sir are a moron. How else can you explain Japan's success as it is homogeneous population. Your mouthing a bunch of hippie multicultural jargon.
There is no cure for war.
Hegemony is not an answer, as it encourages entropic motion, as the past shows.
Maybe because getting nuked does something to eradicate the desire for war? I dunno...I'm a moron. Jerk. Germany? Pretty homogeneous-looking to me...how about Bosnia? Ethnic cleansing? Problem there was that there were 2 homogeneous cultures that were clashing cuz they lived in the same space. If each of them were only, say, 1/16th of the population, they probably wouldn't have started killing each other. But...I'm a moron.
I'm not saying a homogeneous culture doesn't work, I'm just saying that it has issues interacting with other cultures.
Yet so do "hetereogenous" cultures. Didn't the USA just invade Iraq and murder thousands of its civilians? Didn't Soviet Russia hold the world in terror for fifty years?
There may be some "problems" for which there are no solutions, like war and poverty and stupidity. Well, no solution other than to eliminate morons and let nature heal the rest.
[QUOTE}Didn't the USA just invade Iraq and murder thousands of its civilians? [/QUOTE]
Not every problem is attributable to cultural issues, but that actually might be part of it; US has very few A-rabs, so we fine with blowing the shit out of them. However, obviously there are other causes.
In Soviet Russia, atomb bomb fears you.
Indeed. Natural selection > you
Not every problem is attributable to cultural issues, but that actually might be part of it; US has very few A-rabs, so we fine with blowing the shit out of them. However, obviously there are other causes.
In Soviet Russia, atomb bomb fears you.
Indeed. Natural selection > you
In a sane mind, there is no such thing as power for its own sake, because everything is a means to an end, with one exception, and that is life itself.
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
People are hard-wired to seek power because our more aggressive ape ancestors had more grandchildren than the meek ones. Power's a cock-extender. It exists for the propagation of your genes.
Despite the very visible exceptions, this decade has been the most peaceful in human history. This is due directly to American military hegemony. States has troops in over a hundred countries, makes it hard to start up an international conflict.
I don't, for one crave a return to the nasty, brutish and short tribal existence which would no doubt be the result of your clever eugenics and ethnically homogeneous society.
Despite the very visible exceptions, this decade has been the most peaceful in human history. This is due directly to American military hegemony. States has troops in over a hundred countries, makes it hard to start up an international conflict.
I don't, for one crave a return to the nasty, brutish and short tribal existence which would no doubt be the result of your clever eugenics and ethnically homogeneous society.
