Pro Tools - Stereo Trim?

[JayB]

Hey, tried searching for this but didn't come up with anything. Does Pro Tools have a Trim function for stereo? It seems to only come up for mono tracks. Am I missing something? For instance, I printed the final guitars for an album to a stereo track, I can't throw a trim plug on that to automate sections? Seems like a huge oversight if true...

 

[Trevoire520]

Theres a multi-mono version of the plugin

 

[JayB]

I'll check this out again, I thought I tried searching there and didn't see anything

 

[JayB]

Yep, you were right, I think I was thrown off because it said (mono) when I'm used to it saying stereo

 

[abt]

If you want to trim left and right independently there's an unlink button up the top.Under that there's a left/right drop down that lets you change each side.

 

[Skinny Viking]

why not just automate the volume of the printed stereo track and not even bother with the plugin?

 

[JayB]

If you want to trim left and right independently there's an unlink button up the top.Under that there's a left/right drop down that lets you change each side.

Don't think I need to do that, but good to know for the future! Thanks

 

[abt]

why not just automate the volume of the printed stereo track and not even bother with the plugin?

I only use the trim plugin for gain staging. Get the gain staging right then automate volume for dynamics.

Another thing I've found is that lots of plugins don't sound or function the same with proper gain staged signal going in. A lot of the time it needs to be hotter. Also some plugs it doesn't sound the same turn the plugin volume down, so putting a trim at the end of the chain lets you get everything back under control.

Plus I find it easier just to trim last then constantly tweaking volume levels in every plugin.

 

[JayB]

I only use the trim plugin for gain staging. Get the gain staging right then automate volume for dynamics.

Another thing I've found is that lots of plugins don't sound or function the same with proper gain staged signal going in. A lot of the time it needs to be hotter. Also some plugs it doesn't sound the same turn the plugin volume down, so putting a trim at the end of the chain lets you get everything back under control.

Plus I find it easier just to trim last then constantly tweaking volume levels in every plugin.

True, just gotta make sure that none of your plugins are clipping the signal before hitting the next plugin, I've done this a few times without realizing it. For instace having an EQ that increased the gain and clipped , then having that hit other stuff like compression. Then you spend all day like " Why doesn't this sound right? Lol. I wish Pro Tools would have some kind of signal to tell you that even part of your chain is clipping, not just the final output signal of your chain

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

That's quite surprising and I've often proven this "gain staging" theory to be wrong if you stay in the box (although it may depend on what plugins and what DAW you are using, all tools are not made equal).

Just do the test for yourself, take an audio track, duplicate it. On the duplicated track one, put 5 trim plugins with +12 db gain on each. You're boosting your signal by +60db which makes it clipping like crazy (you will NEVER ever have this kind of issue in a mix). Now put another Trim plugin after those, set at -60db and reverse the polarity. Play your original track and your processed track together and you will get perfect silence, they null because they are exactly the same, no clipping at all. Even with +60db of clipping to start with.

 

[Fox Mulder]

That's quite surprising and I've often proven this "gain staging" theory to be wrong if you stay in the box (although it may depend on what plugins and what DAW you are using, all tools are not made equal).

Just do the test for yourself, take an audio track, duplicate it. On the duplicated track one, put 5 trim plugins with +12 db gain on each. You're boosting your signal by +60db which makes it clipping like crazy (you will NEVER ever have this kind of issue in a mix). Now put another Trim plugin after those, set at -60db and reverse the polarity. Play your original track and your processed track together and you will get perfect silence, they null because they are exactly the same, no clipping at all. Even with +60db of clipping to start with.

That's because all "trim" functions of, not only the PT Trim plugin but basically any plugin not modeled after analog gear wouldn't alter the volume "internally" but rather use the DAW's "infrastructure", if that makes sense.

To make myself clear, print the 5 trim plugins with +12db gain on each. Then bring your signal back down, and compare.

 

[abt]

That's quite surprising and I've often proven this "gain staging" theory to be wrong if you stay in the box (although it may depend on what plugins and what DAW you are using, all tools are not made equal).

Just do the test for yourself, take an audio track, duplicate it. On the duplicated track one, put 5 trim plugins with +12 db gain on each. You're boosting your signal by +60db which makes it clipping like crazy (you will NEVER ever have this kind of issue in a mix). Now put another Trim plugin after those, set at -60db and reverse the polarity. Play your original track and your processed track together and you will get perfect silence, they null because they are exactly the same, no clipping at all. Even with +60db of clipping to start with.

I'm confused by this. I agree with what you're saying, but doesn't that prove that we have a huge amount of headroom? My interpretation of proper gain staging is not simply a case of not blowing out the master bus by keeping all your track leveles in check, but also making sure that all your faders are working in a usable range ie around 0 including the master fader.

The point I make in the context of the conversation is that use your trim plug to get your tracks gain under control and volume automation for your dynamics.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

To make myself clear, print the 5 trim plugins with +12db gain on each. Then bring your signal back down, and compare.

Sorry but that's not what it's about, unless I misunderstood the discussion. My point is that you can't overload the inner gain staging, so, yeah of course it's good practice to be careful about that, more like a healthy habit, but it's not something you should lose sleep about as it's not doing anything to your sound (again, depending on the plugin you're using).

The point I make in the context of the conversation is that use your trim plug to get your tracks gain under control and volume automation for your dynamics.

Actually my post was more an answer to JayB than to yours

 

[abt]

@Brett Got it!

FWIW I think the trim plug is the most under rated tool for ITB recording.

 

[Audio X]

why not just automate the volume of the printed stereo track and not even bother with the plugin?

Plugs on PT channels are pre-fader and on the master they're post-fader, so it comes down to how and when you want the signal to be effected.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Sorry but that's not what it's about, unless I misunderstood the discussion. My point is that you can't overload the inner gain staging, so, yeah of course it's good practice to be careful about that, more like a healthy habit, but it's not something you should lose sleep about as it's not doing anything to your sound (again, depending on the plugin you're using).

My bad. Cheers!

 

[JayB]

why not just automate the volume of the printed stereo track and not even bother with the plugin?

That's the whole point; I have a stereo track that is automated at certain points, and the trim plug goes after that automation so the entire track's volume can be moved after automation. If you don't do this, and try to move the volume pn a track that has automation, the volume will not move, it will be glued to where you set automation. Trim is like an extra fader that overrides that

 

[JayB]

@Brett Got it!

FWIW I think the trim plug is the most under rated tool for ITB recording.

I wholeheartedly agree, I didn't even know about it until about a month ago and I use it all the time on every track now.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

JayB do you know about VCA and Trim automation modes in PT? Because apparently your making your life harder with the Trim plugins while VCA and Trim Automation modes would greatly help your workflow.

 

[JayB]

JayB do you know about VCA and Trim automation modes in PT? Because apparently your making your life harder with the Trim plugins while VCA and Trim Automation modes would greatly help your workflow.

Yeah I'm using the Pro Tools Trim function