production discussion - for those interested...

I guess I'm just too new school....Fredman and Sneap both have full permission give my next record a 'glass-like clarity' and make it sound 'too perfect.'

Seriously tho I think that alot of what makes older, shittier recordings cool is nostalgia. Most undergroud bands from the 80s/90s (and now) would have killed for super punchy, transparent production.
 
Don't get me wrong guys, I have nothing but respect and admiration for Mr Sneap et all...that's why I visit here all the time looking for tips, advice and stuff. I was stating was that I prefer a more organic drum sound than is common in modern metal. As for extreme clarity, it's great to hear everything but there is a fine line between hearing everything perfectly and a sterile and flat production, and yeah most of the bands would have killed for better production (which would really show off how good the music was..Testament is a perfect example with their re-recording) but the budgets and equipment as well as the production "trend" of the time all play important factors.
Just my opinion.
Marty
 
I've got to say though, organic drums work fine in say, Deep Purple, Zeppelin etc, but look at what else is in the mix. One, maybe two thin gtrs, nothing giving the kind of low end like we get today. If I started getting older tones people would start refusing my mixes, I 100% guarantee it. Clarity is so important , metal is more technical than it ever has been, the amount of times I've had to remix someones work because they've gone with someone trying to be more old school and, low and behold, a 50 minute lump of mud.
I have to agree with egan about nostalgia, I have friends that are so into vinyl they swear by it, they go on about the smell of it!!! If thats not nostagia. You know, my favourite albums wouldn't be the same with a modern production, but if I was producing Back In Black, hey, I wouldn't be slamming all the high on the kick cause it'll cut though fine anyway. You can't tell me all those early thrash albums actually sound good sonically these days, even the ones I thought were half decent back then, put them on now.....go on. It's great to listen to them again but sonically....? Great for the day/ equipment back then.
I think its quite funny the guy going on about "the same kick all the time", as it's a different kick on all 3 albums listed there, but if he's digging St Anger and Nevermores EOR, we're never going to agree on things, I'm not taking a swipe at those records, they're just very different to how I hear things. All I can say he'll be upset in a few months .....thats all I'm sayin. :tickled:
 
Andy- would more natural sounds be available say if you triggered the drummers kit and then mixed that in with a ton of room mics? rather than using samples from drum modules?

Kinda like metallica's black album.
As far as I know all the drum sounds on that record are natural in yet the 'space' and clarity is second to none.

I quess it is possible to have real drum sounds(like the black album and sevendust)
but you have to ask the question-

Is modern metal a nice and lovely organic thing?
Is it natural and humanistic?

Hardly- from my viewpoint a lot of modern metal is rigid, robotic, and devoid of many human emotions apart from anger/despair etc.

We live in a computer age I say the more agressive and clinical the better- what is the point in having production that doesn't fit or represent the age in which we live?

thoughts?

cheers

james
 
jamesboyd said:
I quess it is possible to have real drum sounds(like the black album and sevendust)
but you have to ask the question-
Click to expand...


James,
Didn't Metallica use (blend in) samples from that old Alesis machine on the black album? At least on the snare? Anyways, you can't make a fast metal album sound like that album. I mean, things would get ugly. Just imagine that drumkit on blast beats! The music on the black album is perfect for getting a big and fat sound, that's what makes it so great sonically. Thanx to Bob and I guess even more Randy.

One cool thing, if you're gonna produce a band with that type of music, listen to Sad But True. There's one snare hit there (just before the solo?? Can't really remember) which you can lift out and use it yourself with Soundreplacer. Make a few different samples with different volumes, and some with a slightly different Eq (for getting that left/right hand type of feeling). That's called cheating... but who cares?

Now go and cheat...
DD
 
Ha, Ive done exactly that with the same snare on sad but true before.
Yeah, to me, the Black album is the best sounding Rock/Metal album ever made, but that is down to the space in the music also. You're forgetting, most of the material I do is way faster than anything on that album, you'd be pulling those room mics down from the get go.
Also with the room mic thing, the rooms got to be worth hearing in the first place, and 9 times out of 10, it isn't.
As far as sampling the drummers kit, I do that all the time to replace any bad hits, I keep Toms natural and the snares a 50/50 mix usually. Kick drum can be a mix also in certain places.
Sevendust ...different kind of music to the thrashier stuff.
James has a good point though, I think in general this type of music has become more mechanical, and I think its more this rather than the sound that some people don't like. Which I can understand. Obviously, with Pro Tools etc you can make things super tight though I have to say with the likes of Nevermore and Arch Enemy, they're just naturally tight bands playing very together.
 
Andy Sneap said:
Yeah, to me, the Black album is the best sounding Rock/Metal album ever made, but that is down to the space in the music also.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree on the black album. Totally. But the next best thing, or let's say the very best, when it comes to faster metal is Testament's The Gathering. No bullshit, you really did a nice one there. It just blew me away when it came out. That album is by the way another great example where the music and sound work soooo well together.

DD
 
Alot of people really like The Gathering, if you could of only seen how we mixed it, Adats, Soundcraft Ghost, No Automation in their tiny control room within their rehearsal room. We hired in some outboard stuff but it was a tough one, great band though, total pros and great players....which is nice.
Good low end, which was probably cause we couldn't tell what the hell was going off down there in the room, ha, sometimes you get lucky. Quite alot of compression at different stages as well, used a SSL comp on the stereo mix, as I was mixing, and also Finalizer when mastering, but I don't think I compressed again when mastering. Those SSL/Alan Smart Comps are killer for this type of music, really give you a certain smack to the sound. You can make it sound like it's been mixed on an SSL even if its not.
 
I understand and I agree with you all when you say that a sound fits a certain type of songs, but what to do when you have some ultra heavy parts and some ultra speed parts in the same song (along with some lighter, kind of jazzy parts) ? Do you compromise to have a sound that fits well for the whole song (make the heavy parts less heavy, the jazzy parts less clean...), or do you "switch" from one setting to the other during a song ?
 
Andy Sneap said:
Alot of people really like The Gathering, if you could of only seen how we mixed it, Adats, Soundcraft Ghost, No Automation in their tiny control room within their rehearsal room. We hired in some outboard stuff but it was a tough one, great band though, total pros and great players....which is nice.
Good low end, which was probably cause we couldn't tell what the hell was going off down there in the room, ha, sometimes you get lucky. Quite alot of compression at different stages as well, used a SSL comp on the stereo mix, as I was mixing, and also Finalizer when mastering, but I don't think I compressed again when mastering. Those SSL/Alan Smart Comps are killer for this type of music, really give you a certain smack to the sound. You can make it sound like it's been mixed on an SSL even if its not.
Click to expand...

So, no multiband compression on mastering stage? just eq,limiting/maximazing? anything done to the stereo image?aural exciters?
 
Maybe a touch of multiband comp. I don't usually do much eqing at mastering, I like to get my mixes to where Im happy with EQ. Sometimes a very slight lift in the top end. Never play with stereo image and I actually think I had some sort of enhancement on the tom group...not something I'd normally do but I was getting a little low on EQ's by that stage!
I'll use SSL comp when I want to hear the compression, and multi band when I don't, though sometimes the SSL can act a bit strange with low end.
 
Andy Sneap said:
Alot of people really like The Gathering, if you could of only seen how we mixed it, Adats, Soundcraft Ghost, No Automation in their tiny control room within their rehearsal room.

Those SSL/Alan Smart Comps are killer for this type of music, really give you a certain smack to the sound. You can make it sound like it's been mixed on an SSL even if its not.
Click to expand...

Cool, cause it sounds like you had all the gear in the world. But you didn't, I dig that. Did you actually mainly use the EQ in the desk, or did you EQ a lot before going to tape with outboards? Or using outboards while mixing?

Yeah, that SSL compressor is really great, only used it a couple of times though. I wish I had two of those, one for sub-compressing drums and one on the master bus. One day...

DD
 
Andy Sneap said:
Clarity is so important , metal is more technical than it ever has been, the amount of times I've had to remix someones work because they've gone with someone trying to be more old school and, low and behold, a 50 minute lump of mud.
Click to expand...

OK I understand about how you can't do the M____ black album sound in fast metal. But doesn't In Flames pull this off a bit on their latest two albums? On both Reroute to Remain and Soundtrack to your Escape the mixes are not clear at all--they are really really full. But it works to their advantage, don't you think?

PS: The Gathering is one of my favorite albums but I thought Low sounded better. Can't believe I just said that on this web site.
 
yeah I forgot to take into account the tempo of most of the songs on the black album- but still it *kinda* works on the faster songs like 'through the never' just not as much.

Plus the fact that the songs are so godly every single one is practically a modern day hymn/national anthem for the metal community also alters our opinion on that album sounds like (conciously or unconciously)

but what is the next step for modern metal production?
It's scary to think that it could get more precise playing wise (which would by default make it sound more polished) but what else could be done?

any long term goals for *your* ultimate sound andy?
what would be the ideal overall sound/sound stage for you? (sorry cheesy questions)

thoughts?

cheers

james
 
[OK I understand about how you can't do the M____ black album sound in fast metal. But doesn't In Flames pull this off a bit on their latest two albums? On both Reroute to Remain and Soundtrack to your Escape the mixes are not clear at all--they are really really full. But it works to their advantage, don't you think?]

Well I know Anders really doesnt like what both Colin Richardson and myself do mix wise, which I don't take personally, it's just a taste thing. Again their sound isn't what I'd go for but it's obviously what they like so fair enough, their selling records so good for them. It's funny. People I know in the business who like the clearer stuff are like "what the hell" about the sound of those two albums, it really is split down the middle. It's what gives a producer a certain sound at the end of the day, personal taste. Some people will like it, others wont. I don't see the point in playing something if you can't hear it, but if you're not careful you can end up with a safe mix I agree. I think the trick is to get it to that point then edge up the gtrs and get a bit more daring with the compression.
 
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