PROFIRE 610 anyone?

[Uncle Junior]

Ok i have one at home. I record my guitars trough it, no other hardware but the soundcard.

Now I wonder if I got the recording procedure right.

1. I set the profire input knob to the point, where the signal is barely before clipping (I play extremley hard to get the red clip LED on, but not while i play my song normaly). So I've been told that this is very important, that the sound card's input is maxed, to get the optimaly good tone.

2. But in Cubase on the input channel i see -1,6 dB peaking. Lots of guys here say their DI's peak at -6 or -12 or -18 dB. So what to do here? is -1,6 ok? should I lower the input gain on PROFIRE or the input channel fader in cubase?



and if you have any recomendation on getting a good tone for techical metal, like SYLOSIS or COB.

 

[Trevoire520]

With a 24bit recording medium you don't need such high levels dude, infact it's generally thought that at a level of about -18dbfs should give the cleanest signal from your AD converters, as the analogue stages are designed to work their best at around 0Vu (which is about -18dbfs in your DAW)

Lower that preamp gain a bit and enjoy the headroom.

 

[ahjteam]

yeah, I rarely even open up the preamp gain with EMG's. Headroom = good.

 

[espartaco]

^^^

correct me if aim wrong but i thougth the more level you can get whitout cliping is going to give you better aproach of the converters .

more level = more digital words you get to represent the signal.

 

[deLuther]

To get level close to 0 dbvu for me means to lower input signal, I think that EMG`s or other powerful pickups can give level over 0 dbvu.
If I`m lower signal, then I will need to amplify it after interface (also significantly), instead of just using reamper.
And I`m also thinks that more level=more bits (but without getting close to 0 dbfs), I usually record DI`s at -3 dbfs and other signals around -6 dbfs.

 

[Uncle Junior]

yeah I heard about maximum levels too, but never found any DI's with -2dB peaks, I found -18dB and -12dB DI's on this forum... but you can't really tell which pups where used and which A/D.


anyway it's also confusing when you record a song... ok you set one level on the profire's input knob... and you record rhytms and after that you have solos, do you use the same input gain, or for let's say clean parts of the song.... I'm not shure if I can play around a lot with the input levels for solos cleans and leads in ONE specific song.

 

[Terminus]

^^^

correct me if aim wrong but i thougth the more level you can get whitout cliping is going to give you better aproach of the converters .

more level = more digital words you get to represent the signal.

Driving the converters too hot is not good for the signal either, but it's always better to have too much than too little. I shoot for the middle, and like ahjteam I don't even mess with input gain, I have the knob zeroed for everything but the master volume (with EMG 81 you'll still get a well hot enough signal).

Ras! You get me? You get me?

 

[espartaco]

yeah you should keep some headroom for the sake of dinamycs, how much is going to depend of the source.. if you can get away whit -3 or -2 dbfs is fine but i dont see the benefit of lower so much your signal if is not that dinamyc.



you can use this metod to optimice any signal youare going to record:

tell the musician to play his parts like he always do. ( not like a pussy)

1- conect your source to your mixer or interface input.

2-crank the gain all the way until the peak ligth is in red.

3-then get it down until the ligth is in red ocasionaly. once again get it down again aproximately 6 dbs ( a quarter turn of the pre amp pot aproximately) this is your headroom.

4-double chek now whit the metters of your dawn if you need more of less preamplification.

 

[deLuther]

For me, EMG`s don`t require much headroom because of internal clipping, it`s fairly easy to work with.
Passive pickups give more troubles. I usually set level according to each guitar/pickup combination individually (on hard picking).
To get resulting level around -3 dbfs I need to amplify by 0-3 db for passives and 3-6 db for EMG`s (except X-series on 18 Volts - dynamics is similar to passive).
I think that on Profire 610 on minimum gain (without pad engaged) and EMG`s you should get around -5 - -6 dbfs.

 

[greyskull]

headroom is good.
Most cheap converters dont like being driven hard.

 

[Trevoire520]

yeah you should keep some headroom for the sake of dinamycs, how much is going to depend of the source.. if you can get away whit -3 or -2 dbfs is fine but i dont see the benefit of lower so much your signal if is not that dinamyc.



you can use this metod to optimice any signal youare going to record:

tell the musician to play his parts like he always do. ( not like a pussy)

1- conect your source to your mixer or interface input.

2-crank the gain all the way until the peak ligth is in red.

3-then get it down until the ligth is in red ocasionaly. once again get it down again aproximately 6 dbs ( a quarter turn of the pre amp pot aproximately) this is your headroom.

4-double chek now whit the metters of your dawn if you need more of less preamplification.

Or just turn it up until the level is good? Instead of clipping it lots, clipping it a little and then not clipping it.

 

[Trevoire520]

You guys should read this:

Massivemastering.com - Proper Audio Recording Levels

Highlights include:

So - You have a microphone and a preamp going into a converter or sound card. Those converters are calibrated at LINE LEVEL. In most cases, over the last several years, most I've seen are calibrated to -18dBFS = line level (or 0dBVU)
THIS IS WHERE YOUR GEAR IS DESIGNED TO RUN. This is where it's spec'd at. You will have a decent amount of headroom, the lowest distortion, the best signal to noise ratio, etc., etc., etc. around this level or lower.
EVEN YOUR DIGITAL CONVERTERS are ANALOG components up to the converter itself.
When you take a steak and cook it until it's burnt, it's burnt. If you pour ice cubes all over it, it doesn't make it more rare - It makes it a cold, wet, burnt steak. No matter what you do, it's still burnt. Just like if you record too hot.

 

[Uncle Junior]

great anwsers, I got some ideas here and tried stuff out.

...while at it, I noticed that my guitar is not what I'd like to hold in my hands. It's a KH-603 LTD ESP which I bought 2 years ago for 1100€ in a store here in my country

(Slovenia by the way, "almost kicked USA's as in Africa, but we always fuck up in the end... We played Serbia on euro2000 or smtn and we were leading 3:0. Serbia like scored 3 goals in aprox. 5 min and were back to 3:3):Spam:



so I recorded stuff the other day and I noticed that my EMG81 (dual emg81 bridge &neck) clip the signal. Ok the DI's sounded like rawwrs when I hit a power chord. No clipping in DAW non on Profire610. I had the input gain knob on Profire on minimum. It also has an option for -20dB when you pull out the knob. Without this -20db option and with the knob on minimum I get -8.5dB peaks. I wonder if this is too much or whatever, because I got rid of the rawrish sound when I really lowered the pups so the were like 1 cm away or so, kinda in level with the body. no more clipping and rawrs. But the sound or tone with ampsims is just too poor. I also played with the volume knob of the guitar for anyone who might suggest that, I tried all kinds of positions half way down etc. Changed battery, actually after trying the new 9V I just gave up and tried 18V mod, which as I see is favored and praised on every forum I read. Only one person on this forum said he tried it and wasn't satisfied with the result. But anyway I'm sceptical too, I mean which band who uses EMG81 has the guitars equiped with 18V. I think I get a muddier tone with, or its more like concentrated sound, fuller. Theres no clipping anymore.

So this ltd sucks. Its heavier than any bass I held, It's like 8 kg. Massive wood, you can trash somebodys car with it or head But maybe I cant set it up correctlly. So HERE I could use some inputs. I play melodical metal, I play lower harmonies my friend has a jackson Phil Demmel or smtn and he's supposed to play higer part of the harmonies trough the song, which is kinda made mostly of harmonic stuff which includes rhytm guitars. I dont want them muddy or anything close to what some people here call DJENT or smtn. I need a clean tone on the guitars so I'll get those harmonies out nicely, tuned to E standard and the melodies are played mostly on lower strings, which makes them a bit bassy, let's say between 3rd and 10th fret on E and A strings. I tried many impulses but I didn't work out, I get fizzy muddy stuff. I blame the guitar, but I know " the player should be blamed " aint the thing here. I listened to some other DI's and they sounded more ringing metal and where bright what I get is more like the strings where coverd with a cloth, no ringing in them and they are new strings. DR 11-50 covered with somesort of black nano-web to make em "last". I also tried ordinary strings, Ernie Ball 10 - 46 .

I got carried away here maybe but at least you know the details...

 

[AudioGeekZine]

^^^

correct me if aim wrong but i thougth the more level you can get whitout cliping is going to give you better aproach of the converters .

more level = more digital words you get to represent the signal.

A myth leftover from the early days of digital. 20 years later you want some headroom.

All you need is line level which is -18 or so in your DAW meters. The converters and preamps are designed to sound cleanest at line level.

 

[deLuther]

I think that DI`s with peaks at -18 dbfs will sound poor with ampsims, software amplification (just level adjustment) by each 6 db removes 1 bit of resolution, which scares me Not to mention reamping - with reduction of about 12 db (around so on, at least on Radial`s) output signal will be to low, compared to pickup output, so there is need for external amplification... Maybe theory just not very suitable in case when you need to get output levels far from 0 dbu (.775 Vrms, or even +4dbu, 1.23 Vrms for Pro standart) to properly drive amp?
And additional question - does 0 dbVU means +4 dbu every time or different units have calibrated differently?
At least I have experience with Art Tube MP Studio, it`s VU-meter calibrated for +12 dbu @ 0 dbVU (at XLR output), and also seen similar things on other inexpensive pres...
As for +4 dbu level, if interface has line inputs with +20 dbu@0 dbfs, then it means -16 dbfs
What is more bad amplify before AD to get - 3 dbfs for ampsims to sound good or amplify by 13 db in software?
I think it`s rhetoric question...

Another point of doubt: why audio testing software prefers testing at levels close to -1 dbfs (such as RightMark)?
Specifications for ADC also favors levels close to -1 dbfs for S/(N+D) (usually measured for different levels), at least for AKM`s such as AK5385B and AK5394A (top of the line).

If problem is in preamps driven to hard, then for DI`s it can mean that you will need to drive it harder one time, before or after interface?

 

[AudioGeekZine]

I think you're over thinking it.

 

[deLuther]

But, every time I try to record DI`s lower than -3 dbfs (say -6 dbfs) and then amplify signal in software result sounds duller than recorded with hardware amplification.
I think that better to try yourself and find what sounds better personally.
At least I think that better to record signal at level when you don`t neet to boost or lower it later.

 

[Melodeath]

I checked out that link. I'm not convinced at all. Recording hotter does indeed "use more bits." However, -18dBFS is still about 21 bits used. Converters and preamps on modern audio interfaces should be pretty linear. I'm going to test this with a signal generator and null test

 

[AudioGeekZine]

I've asked M-Audio about their converter level before and why their manuals say to turn up to just before clipping. Their answer was that it's way easier to say that rather than trying to educate the entry level customers about gain staging, line level etc. They agreed that -18 or so is optimal.

Check out this interactive meter thinger http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/metergain/index.htm click around on there for more info.