Prog Power X - The sound engineering was seriously bad :(
- Thread starter maendark187
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Prog_Please
Member
Actuallyy..... before I invested in nice earplugs, I was always deaf the next day. And one day, it was amazing cuz I had a midterm and instead of hearing all the papers being shuffled and those retarded kids who drop their calculators, I was totally deaf and in the zone.
Urban breed
Member
OK. Here's one reason why it stays loud:
The ability to discern tone or pitch within a range, is affected by high SPLs.
Turn it up and a note slightly out of tune now sounds okay.
Guile
PPUSA circa 2005
Mixing all these bands in an analog Midas console is only for the good ones. I have done live mixes for the past 5 years and that is hard to pull. Yes it was a bit too loud at some points, but I guess that is the engineers call... and remember that you are listening live Metal. Don't get me wrong, I prefer quality over volume but sometimes you have to deal with the professional on the job.
Try going to a Manowar show and you will see what PAIN means.
For those using the cheap-regular ear plugs, don't forget that it only kill the high frequencies, the low ones are still vibrating your skull and they also do damage overtime.
To finish, the WORST "volume" moment was during the announcement for next year. It was so loud my ears reached the threshold of pain. Besides that and Royal Hunt's mix (the worst of the two nights) everything else rocked!!!!
See you next year.
Try going to a Manowar show and you will see what PAIN means.
For those using the cheap-regular ear plugs, don't forget that it only kill the high frequencies, the low ones are still vibrating your skull and they also do damage overtime.
To finish, the WORST "volume" moment was during the announcement for next year. It was so loud my ears reached the threshold of pain. Besides that and Royal Hunt's mix (the worst of the two nights) everything else rocked!!!!
See you next year.
Never had to wear earplugs before this show. Been to plenty of metal shows, too.
I think most of the people who liked the sound had earplugs in common-- which is a shame, because earplugs should be a last resort. If the house sound is too overwhelming, the sheer volume of it can overwhelm the bands ability to hear themselves... then you have that monitor battle going on and musicians can't hear themselves.
I'll give PP another show to see how the sound is. I'm going to pick up a pair of good plugs that don't kill just certain frequencies, too.
I think most of the people who liked the sound had earplugs in common-- which is a shame, because earplugs should be a last resort. If the house sound is too overwhelming, the sheer volume of it can overwhelm the bands ability to hear themselves... then you have that monitor battle going on and musicians can't hear themselves.
I'll give PP another show to see how the sound is. I'm going to pick up a pair of good plugs that don't kill just certain frequencies, too.
And to keep going on that example (you're right), if you turn it up even more, the ear diaphragm becomes overwhelmed, and what sounds good ends up sounding bad again
Metal has evolved over the years. What was once just pure power and raw energy has now become intricate with tons of layers. YOu can still just blast Sabaton, but for Royal Hunt you need to turn it down a little. I would think that 90 db would be more than enough for most of the bands at PP.
PP is actually less loud than most other metal concerts, but I have noticed that when they are having trouble with the sound they almost seem to give up and just crank it.
Metalheads should be embarrassed that even local pop, country, and soft rock bands can get a better sound than some of the biggest metal acts. I don't think I've ever been to a non-metal concert and had the sound be anything but perfect, whether a local group or a national chart-topping act.
PP is actually less loud than most other metal concerts, but I have noticed that when they are having trouble with the sound they almost seem to give up and just crank it.
Metalheads should be embarrassed that even local pop, country, and soft rock bands can get a better sound than some of the biggest metal acts. I don't think I've ever been to a non-metal concert and had the sound be anything but perfect, whether a local group or a national chart-topping act.
Force10
Member
Great post, I agree completely with all 3 points.
I've been following this thread closely as the sound last year was one of the reasons I did't attend this year. Yes, I wear earplugs, beer doesn't make me hear better, I do move around, and I often stand near the mixing board. Yes, I know it's a live festival with limited soundchecks, etc. etc.
Trying to put all the positives and negatives together - it seems that the sound was improved over last year, but not quite as good for a few of the sets. In any case, I'm glad to hear things had improved, and may attend next year.
Glenn mentions in his "Goodnight" post that "We have to adjust on the fly to the best of our ability", but as adaher mentions, I agree more with "when they are having trouble with the sound they almost seem to give up and just crank it".
I'm already slightly hearing-impaired (nerve damage from when I was a baby, unrelated to loud music) - I don't ever go to a show without earplugs. I forgot them for a show in Germany (left 'em in my luggage back at the hostel) and I got by okay, but it was really uncomfortable, so I never forget them anymore. I can tell when a mix is REALLY bad, but most of the time my hearing is not sensitive enough to pick up any imbalances - or really care much if I do.
Azrael LenGraden
Lake Of Fire
I hung out with Rich (Front of House mixer) through all three days of sound check and at various times during the show. We had a discussion regarding volume and past guys trying to overpower the system (Rich help put that system in years ago). He specifically told me he was going to pull back on the volume to improve the sound...which I believe he did many times to much success. What you have to understand is some of the bands bring their own sound guy in ...what I saw/heard was just as Rich was getting the system to sound consistent, some other sound guy would come in and do something different. I sat right behind the mixer for almost all bands. Pontus Norgren (Hammerfall) was mixing for Circus Maximus and Pagan's Mind. I thought he killed CMs set with the bass being to loud and pushing the volume too much. I spoke with Rich and he in turn spoke with Pontus cause I DID NOT WANT Pagans Mind's sound to be ruined. I believe he compensated nicely as PM sounded very good. Fates had there own sound guy as well... The sound guys have no control over someone turning their wireless mic on off and not turning it back on (Mark Boals). Over all I thought it was definitely one o the better sounding PPs I have been to, this is my 6th.
I'm that guy who has been standing on the stage for just about every line check and live situation with the bands for ProgPower (all of them). I think the unsung heroes are the Center Stage FOH and monitor guys. Now keep in mind, I'm not really too biased, because I have little to nothing to do with the front of house sound, nor does my crew, but we work these guys like we do. They work from 9am-2am for 3 days straight, so you can have what you have.
Picture this (those that have so much experience)...
You run the sound for the venue all year long and know the room better than anyone. You set the board for the 1st three line checks of the day. The headliner comes in and sets the entire board differently, even though they know it's a Festival. They need 12 DIs for keys on one side of the stage, they have a Strange 14 foot Flute for a 30-second intro they need mic'd, a condenser mic for the dwarf who tap dances (and needs to be mic'd), the bass drums and floor tom for the band "must be triggered"(per the band), there are laptop tracks that need to be triggered and the bassist demands to be the loudest instrument. Now their check is done and you come back to the board and have to reset it all back during the 20 minute you have forthe next band and now the bands have to be moved from the channels and EQ settings it had to accomodate all the keyboards and other channels from the headliners.
Now tell me how consistent anyone can be when there is only 20 minutes between most bands? Trust me, it's as good as it gets with the amount of bands, restrictions and variables and I've been to many festivals to attest.
These guys do this for a living... every single day. I think it's fair to think without knowing the variables that you can do it better, but believe me when I say, you probably can't.
If you stand at the front... it won't sound as good as near the board.
Picture this (those that have so much experience)...
You run the sound for the venue all year long and know the room better than anyone. You set the board for the 1st three line checks of the day. The headliner comes in and sets the entire board differently, even though they know it's a Festival. They need 12 DIs for keys on one side of the stage, they have a Strange 14 foot Flute for a 30-second intro they need mic'd, a condenser mic for the dwarf who tap dances (and needs to be mic'd), the bass drums and floor tom for the band "must be triggered"(per the band), there are laptop tracks that need to be triggered and the bassist demands to be the loudest instrument. Now their check is done and you come back to the board and have to reset it all back during the 20 minute you have forthe next band and now the bands have to be moved from the channels and EQ settings it had to accomodate all the keyboards and other channels from the headliners.
Now tell me how consistent anyone can be when there is only 20 minutes between most bands? Trust me, it's as good as it gets with the amount of bands, restrictions and variables and I've been to many festivals to attest.
These guys do this for a living... every single day. I think it's fair to think without knowing the variables that you can do it better, but believe me when I say, you probably can't.
If you stand at the front... it won't sound as good as near the board.
digitalink
Chief Rocker
Force10
Member
Would increasing the time betweeen bands by 5 or 10 minutes help? If so then I'd say it would be well worth it.
mëtålspëd
Umlauts ist Krieg
That would add up to an hour @ six bands.... no way in hell I want the fest to run an hour longer. IMO, of corpse.
Force10
Member
mëtålspëd;8552427 said:
Actually - 5 changeovers - so it would be 25-50 minutes (at 5 or 10), but I see your point. But I'd be willing to wait longer if it meant better sound.
The Invisible Guest
Member
They last a long time as well .. so even though you are spending a few bucks up front you will have them for many metal shows. I had my first pair for probably 30 shows or more, and then the only reason I had to get a new pair is because I lost one. Money well spent. Also .. not to confuse anyone but the blue ones I posted earlier in the thread are actually made for a smaller ear canal (i think for children) ... I actually own the regular sized white ones pictured at that link above. I think the adults would want to order those over the blue ones.
Britt
poundingmetal74
Demons Will Fly
Musically, I thought the live mixing was pretty good. Not the best I've heard but far from the worst. A tad bass heavy, guitars a bit undermixed. Snare too quiet.
My main problem was the vocals. During Crimson's set in particular, one singer was cranked and the other you could hardly hear. There were a few bands where the singers were impossible to hear. Ray was mixed rather quiet during the fates set too.
My main problem was the vocals. During Crimson's set in particular, one singer was cranked and the other you could hardly hear. There were a few bands where the singers were impossible to hear. Ray was mixed rather quiet during the fates set too.
PMA
Prog Rock/Metal Head
Overall, I thought the entire festival was quite loud, some more than others. Realizing that there are different needs by the bands and sometimes their own sound people contributing to a lack of continuity, the band I thought sounded best was Circus Maximus. They started the Saturday show not very loud (at least as compared to prior nights) and had the best dynamics because of this. I could hear all instruments well and the vocals seemed right where they needed to be. My general view is the same as others where the bass seemed overly loud and boomy, guitars were lost a good part of the time depending on band and the overall volume did not help with dynamics. Earplugs were a must.
I know the bands want what they want but I think a lot of the monitor feedback could be dealt with by having them all go with in ear monitoring. I also think it would not take away from the show experience to turn it down about 10db. Since Glenn is able to use a common backline for all the bands, he should also tell them that they must also use the person who knows the venue best for sound with input from the bands sound people on specific things like unique instruments or computer generated music.
I know the bands want what they want but I think a lot of the monitor feedback could be dealt with by having them all go with in ear monitoring. I also think it would not take away from the show experience to turn it down about 10db. Since Glenn is able to use a common backline for all the bands, he should also tell them that they must also use the person who knows the venue best for sound with input from the bands sound people on specific things like unique instruments or computer generated music.
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