Prog Power X - The sound engineering was seriously bad :(
- Thread starter maendark187
- Start date
You are right about the subjective part and depending where you are on the venue...however, from an overall point of view, there was an issue with the mix levels and a little clipping (distortion) going on sometimes, which could be hears anywhere...
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
Absolutely...certainly for metal shows, and really, for almost any show in any venue.
I won't see a show without them, nowadays, and always have a few reserve pairs in my car.
The exception that proves the rule: Trans-Siberian Orchestra at Gwinnett Arena here in ATL, a few years ago. I was sitting mid-way back on the floor. I had my earplugs in, but noticed that the show seemed unusually quiet, so I took them out. Despite the half-house arena setting (with seating for 4-5,000), the sound was PERFECT.
'Course, that was a family show, with a fair number of kids and non-metal adults present, which is why they pulled the house PA back, but I remember thinking "Wow, if only any other show could sound this perfect."
And none has.
Prog_Muse
Look Who The Cat Dragged In
I believe they prefer the term "little people."
This actually reminded me. I was calling Brainstorm "Thought Showers" this weekend.
You should probably read this article to get the joke.
Bryan316
METAL... nuff said!
After reading about people thinking the sound was bad, I wanna throw in my two cents.
The only times I ever heard any legit sound issues, was guitar solos. And I noticed, that some axe-slingers were playing their solos straight through with the song.
And I didn't notice them stepping on a pedal of any sorts.
Now... that sound guy has a helluva busy time behind that board. I've watched him tweak kickdrum compressors/gates to get things from being too boomy, dialing toms to not sound funky, balancing vocalists when four guys are singing at once (trust me, with Mellotron, we KNOW how hard this is!) and trying to keep keyboard patches under control as they're changing from mild and gentle to speaker-blowing.
A personal philosophy of mine, when performing on stage, is to be self-reliant. In both bands, my guitarists have their rigs set up with their cleans-to-heavys at a relatively close volume. When we switch from cleans to heavys, it doesn't sound like a blasting huge volume increase, it just sounds like a change. And... here's the important part... they have their lead solo settings with automatic volume increases so they're heard over each others' guitars in the mix.
But when I heard a buried guitar solo, it was because they weren't kicking in any kind of volume boost!
I can attribute this to the back line. They're all playing the same amps. But what if they're just not used to those amps, or hardly familiar with their controls? Then you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it! [/GunsN'Roses]
I'm not slinging blame here, nor defending anyone from any blame. But it's something I wonder if youz guyz ever noticed while the shows go on. For example, when Pagan's Mind was up there, Jorn had his own rig, with his own programmed presets and amp settings, which he was familiar with. And since he was already comfy, he also knew when and how to give himself those boosts in volume when needed. But for some of the other bands, they just didn't have that perfect stage comfort. And they didn't stomp anything when they went into their solos.
Okay, I'm starting to ramble.
Guys. If your band is going to play next year, get familiar with the amps they provide. Know how to set up the solo boost features on those Rectifiers. If not, then bring yourself a Boss EQ pedal, put it in the effects loop, and just give yourself a volume boost with it. Don't rely on the sound guy to be paying attention to your playing or know your songs well enough, to know when to boost your signal in the song. Take that responsibility away from him so he doesn't leave you behind in the mix. Be self-reliant when you know your guitar solo is coming up, and you'll be in total control of your performance.
And then if there's mess ups, we'll KNOW who to blame! Heh heh!
Okay I'm going back to being sick and trying to reassemble a bathroom. Had to get this little diddy out there and off my conscience.
May the fists of a thousand Sabaton fans drive you to greatness.
The only times I ever heard any legit sound issues, was guitar solos. And I noticed, that some axe-slingers were playing their solos straight through with the song.
And I didn't notice them stepping on a pedal of any sorts.
Now... that sound guy has a helluva busy time behind that board. I've watched him tweak kickdrum compressors/gates to get things from being too boomy, dialing toms to not sound funky, balancing vocalists when four guys are singing at once (trust me, with Mellotron, we KNOW how hard this is!) and trying to keep keyboard patches under control as they're changing from mild and gentle to speaker-blowing.
A personal philosophy of mine, when performing on stage, is to be self-reliant. In both bands, my guitarists have their rigs set up with their cleans-to-heavys at a relatively close volume. When we switch from cleans to heavys, it doesn't sound like a blasting huge volume increase, it just sounds like a change. And... here's the important part... they have their lead solo settings with automatic volume increases so they're heard over each others' guitars in the mix.
But when I heard a buried guitar solo, it was because they weren't kicking in any kind of volume boost!
I can attribute this to the back line. They're all playing the same amps. But what if they're just not used to those amps, or hardly familiar with their controls? Then you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it! [/GunsN'Roses]
I'm not slinging blame here, nor defending anyone from any blame. But it's something I wonder if youz guyz ever noticed while the shows go on. For example, when Pagan's Mind was up there, Jorn had his own rig, with his own programmed presets and amp settings, which he was familiar with. And since he was already comfy, he also knew when and how to give himself those boosts in volume when needed. But for some of the other bands, they just didn't have that perfect stage comfort. And they didn't stomp anything when they went into their solos.
Okay, I'm starting to ramble.
Guys. If your band is going to play next year, get familiar with the amps they provide. Know how to set up the solo boost features on those Rectifiers. If not, then bring yourself a Boss EQ pedal, put it in the effects loop, and just give yourself a volume boost with it. Don't rely on the sound guy to be paying attention to your playing or know your songs well enough, to know when to boost your signal in the song. Take that responsibility away from him so he doesn't leave you behind in the mix. Be self-reliant when you know your guitar solo is coming up, and you'll be in total control of your performance.
And then if there's mess ups, we'll KNOW who to blame! Heh heh!
Okay I'm going back to being sick and trying to reassemble a bathroom. Had to get this little diddy out there and off my conscience.
May the fists of a thousand Sabaton fans drive you to greatness.
Exploding Ned
Member
Exploding Ned
Member
After reading about people thinking the sound was bad, I wanna throw in my two cents.
The only times I ever heard any legit sound issues, was guitar solos. And I noticed, that some axe-slingers were playing their solos straight through with the song.
And I didn't notice them stepping on a pedal of any sorts.
Now... that sound guy has a helluva busy time behind that board. I've watched him tweak kickdrum compressors/gates to get things from being too boomy, dialing toms to not sound funky, balancing vocalists when four guys are singing at once (trust me, with Mellotron, we KNOW how hard this is!) and trying to keep keyboard patches under control as they're changing from mild and gentle to speaker-blowing.
A personal philosophy of mine, when performing on stage, is to be self-reliant. In both bands, my guitarists have their rigs set up with their cleans-to-heavys at a relatively close volume. When we switch from cleans to heavys, it doesn't sound like a blasting huge volume increase, it just sounds like a change. And... here's the important part... they have their lead solo settings with automatic volume increases so they're heard over each others' guitars in the mix.
But when I heard a buried guitar solo, it was because they weren't kicking in any kind of volume boost!
I can attribute this to the back line. They're all playing the same amps. But what if they're just not used to those amps, or hardly familiar with their controls? Then you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it! [/GunsN'Roses]
I'm not slinging blame here, nor defending anyone from any blame. But it's something I wonder if youz guyz ever noticed while the shows go on. For example, when Pagan's Mind was up there, Jorn had his own rig, with his own programmed presets and amp settings, which he was familiar with. And since he was already comfy, he also knew when and how to give himself those boosts in volume when needed. But for some of the other bands, they just didn't have that perfect stage comfort. And they didn't stomp anything when they went into their solos.
Okay, I'm starting to ramble.
Guys. If your band is going to play next year, get familiar with the amps they provide. Know how to set up the solo boost features on those Rectifiers. If not, then bring yourself a Boss EQ pedal, put it in the effects loop, and just give yourself a volume boost with it. Don't rely on the sound guy to be paying attention to your playing or know your songs well enough, to know when to boost your signal in the song. Take that responsibility away from him so he doesn't leave you behind in the mix. Be self-reliant when you know your guitar solo is coming up, and you'll be in total control of your performance.
And then if there's mess ups, we'll KNOW who to blame! Heh heh!
Okay I'm going back to being sick and trying to reassemble a bathroom. Had to get this little diddy out there and off my conscience.
May the fists of a thousand Sabaton fans drive you to greatness.
Good suggestions, but still, it isn't that hard for a PA guy to watch the action onstage and realize when there's a guitar or keyboard or bass solo. It's called being a competent PA guy. And really, if they nix the "wall of mud" it would make the solos easier to bring forth anyway. Sorry, but I just get tired of bad sound at concerts. Especially in venues as easy to fix the sound as Center Stage, Fox, Masquerade, Variety Playhouse etc.
Rick Pierpont
Odin's Court Guitar
Wow! I actually think PP has some of the best sound around! When you consider the number of bands that fly across that stage with relatively little time to change over and tweak things, you simply can't expect the kind of sound that you would hear at a single band concert like TSO. The sound guys work feverishly between sets to get things dialed in as quickly as possible. I noticed some boominess at times, but that seems to be par for the course with metal shows, though I don't understand that.
I read through this thread and noticed a few comments that made me go "huh?"
You are lucky if the volume was even as low as 115db. 90db is unrealistic and I'm sure most shows are closer to 130+db.
In-ear monitors are GREAT, but only if your monitor mix is PERFECT! If the mix isn't perfect, you don't hear what you need because its not making it though - PERIOD! That is no fun! Also, I really like them, but they also take away from the feel of the show to me. I've spoken to many musicians and I'm not alone in this feeling. Additionally, you have to contend with interference issues, monitors popping out of your ears, and that cable getting pinched between you and your guitar strap (as in my case) and that gets annoying too. That said, a perfect in-ear mix is worth it, but a rarity. In the case of a festival or local show with too many bands playing, they are difficult to get it right. We have never even entertained the thought of using in-ears at Jaxx. Of course, it has been rare that we even have monitors there and barely get a line check there, so keep that in mind. Honestly, I have played MANY, MANY places over the years and have never experienced anything remotely as nice as we get at ProgPower. Rich does do an amazing job of getting the monitors dialed in and I'd practically kill to have that kind of sound on stage! Oddly enough, the closest I've come to this is when we played a show in Atlanta (actually, Marietta) at The Local. We did use in-ears and while not perfect, it was damn close! One of my favorite shows to play to date (even on 1 1/2 hours of sleep after driving 13 hours).
Another misconception... the majority of players come with there own floor units and simply use the Rectifiers as power amps. Most popular are Vox Tonelabs and Line 6 Pod XT Lives. Others bring their own amps and yes, the rest use our Boogie Triple Rectifiers or our Line 6 HD147s. I can assure you that ALL the ones I helped with the Boogie's DID have the ability to boost their solos as I or Mike personally set them up for such. The same goes for the HD147s. If they didn't use the boost, that was their own choice. And in case you were wondering what I was doing with the amps during Brainstorm's set, it was me trying to get his solos boosted better. Pre-show when everything was quiet, he thought the boost was enough, once they got started Mike and I didn't think it was enough and he agreed. So I quickly reprogrammed his solo levels between songs (kinda blindly too as we didn't have much time and couldn't make too much noise). He later indicated that it was little too much, so I ran back out and backed it down a bit. He was happy the rest of the time. I can't remember who, but one guitarist didn't want to bother and wanted to let the sound man handle it, but I quickly convinced him to rethink that strategy. Personally, I have a Mesa Boogie Mark IV rack head and use my GMajor to boost the level for leads. I use the Lead channel for rhythms and solos, but use a different patch on the GMajor to add some reverb, a tiny bit of delay, and a volume boost. I fully understand taking things into my own hands and also urge others to do the same.
Paul, I remember you mentioning TSO. I agree! They always have great sound and there are two big reasons for that. As I mentioned above, they are the only band that plays and they have hours to dial things in and they don't get changed after that. However, I think a huge contributor is the fact that their stage volume is almost non-existent due to the use of electronic drums an guitars going direct to the PA. This gives the sound man more control and makes it easier to keep the overall volume lower and more even. The use of acoustic drums (which I strongly prefer their sound) unfortunately, makes a low stage volume a pipe dream and drives things up real quick on stage. Get your drummer pumped up halfway through your set and its even worse as he begins to hit the drums with enough force to drive the venue into the ground. I fully expect Centerstage to strike oil one of these days! ;-)
All that said, ProgPower is truly an amazing festival and working behind the scenes for the past two years has even further confirmed that thought for me. It truly does run VERY smoothly and if you saw all the craziness that goes into putting on a show like this, you'd be blown away! I thought I had a good idea of what it took -- now I know that I barely had a clue! It really does run like a finely oiled machine - even with the inevitable hiccups.
I read through this thread and noticed a few comments that made me go "huh?"
You are lucky if the volume was even as low as 115db. 90db is unrealistic and I'm sure most shows are closer to 130+db.
In-ear monitors are GREAT, but only if your monitor mix is PERFECT! If the mix isn't perfect, you don't hear what you need because its not making it though - PERIOD! That is no fun! Also, I really like them, but they also take away from the feel of the show to me. I've spoken to many musicians and I'm not alone in this feeling. Additionally, you have to contend with interference issues, monitors popping out of your ears, and that cable getting pinched between you and your guitar strap (as in my case) and that gets annoying too. That said, a perfect in-ear mix is worth it, but a rarity. In the case of a festival or local show with too many bands playing, they are difficult to get it right. We have never even entertained the thought of using in-ears at Jaxx. Of course, it has been rare that we even have monitors there and barely get a line check there, so keep that in mind. Honestly, I have played MANY, MANY places over the years and have never experienced anything remotely as nice as we get at ProgPower. Rich does do an amazing job of getting the monitors dialed in and I'd practically kill to have that kind of sound on stage! Oddly enough, the closest I've come to this is when we played a show in Atlanta (actually, Marietta) at The Local. We did use in-ears and while not perfect, it was damn close! One of my favorite shows to play to date (even on 1 1/2 hours of sleep after driving 13 hours).
Another misconception... the majority of players come with there own floor units and simply use the Rectifiers as power amps. Most popular are Vox Tonelabs and Line 6 Pod XT Lives. Others bring their own amps and yes, the rest use our Boogie Triple Rectifiers or our Line 6 HD147s. I can assure you that ALL the ones I helped with the Boogie's DID have the ability to boost their solos as I or Mike personally set them up for such. The same goes for the HD147s. If they didn't use the boost, that was their own choice. And in case you were wondering what I was doing with the amps during Brainstorm's set, it was me trying to get his solos boosted better. Pre-show when everything was quiet, he thought the boost was enough, once they got started Mike and I didn't think it was enough and he agreed. So I quickly reprogrammed his solo levels between songs (kinda blindly too as we didn't have much time and couldn't make too much noise). He later indicated that it was little too much, so I ran back out and backed it down a bit. He was happy the rest of the time. I can't remember who, but one guitarist didn't want to bother and wanted to let the sound man handle it, but I quickly convinced him to rethink that strategy. Personally, I have a Mesa Boogie Mark IV rack head and use my GMajor to boost the level for leads. I use the Lead channel for rhythms and solos, but use a different patch on the GMajor to add some reverb, a tiny bit of delay, and a volume boost. I fully understand taking things into my own hands and also urge others to do the same.
Paul, I remember you mentioning TSO. I agree! They always have great sound and there are two big reasons for that. As I mentioned above, they are the only band that plays and they have hours to dial things in and they don't get changed after that. However, I think a huge contributor is the fact that their stage volume is almost non-existent due to the use of electronic drums an guitars going direct to the PA. This gives the sound man more control and makes it easier to keep the overall volume lower and more even. The use of acoustic drums (which I strongly prefer their sound) unfortunately, makes a low stage volume a pipe dream and drives things up real quick on stage. Get your drummer pumped up halfway through your set and its even worse as he begins to hit the drums with enough force to drive the venue into the ground. I fully expect Centerstage to strike oil one of these days! ;-)
All that said, ProgPower is truly an amazing festival and working behind the scenes for the past two years has even further confirmed that thought for me. It truly does run VERY smoothly and if you saw all the craziness that goes into putting on a show like this, you'd be blown away! I thought I had a good idea of what it took -- now I know that I barely had a clue! It really does run like a finely oiled machine - even with the inevitable hiccups.
KingsGene
God of Thunder
You are lucky if the volume was even as low as 115db. 90db is unrealistic and I'm sure most shows are closer to 130+db.
Maybe unrealistic from a cultural perspective, but not from an engineering perspective. When I was a kid we used to have rock and metal bands play in the gym at high school at pep rallies and the school enforced a strict 90 db limit. It was loud, but it didn't make your ears ring.
Even 90 db can cause some hearing loss at an 8 hour festival. 125 db is the level at which pain begins. Any band that plays at 130db deserves to be sued.
again, only metal bands play this loud. There may once have been a time when this was rebellious and cool, and I guess metal in the 70s and 80s wasn't any good unless you listened to it at max volume. But metal today is different. It's time for metal to be appreciated the same way any other music is: at reasonable decibel levels.
I think another poster once said that Nightwish plays at 100db?
Maybe unrealistic from a cultural perspective, but not from an engineering perspective. When I was a kid we used to have rock and metal bands play in the gym at high school at pep rallies and the school enforced a strict 90 db limit. It was loud, but it didn't make your ears ring.
Even 90 db can cause some hearing loss at an 8 hour festival. 125 db is the level at which pain begins. Any band that plays at 130db deserves to be sued.
again, only metal bands play this loud. There may once have been a time when this was rebellious and cool, and I guess metal in the 70s and 80s wasn't any good unless you listened to it at max volume. But metal today is different. It's time for metal to be appreciated the same way any other music is: at reasonable decibel levels.
I think another poster once said that Nightwish plays at 100db?
My ears actually hurt on one song and I had to get earplugs in immediately ! Other than that , the actual mixing was much better than most other progpowers. Adagio was a Mess when they played as well as the last time Symphony X was there. I think most sound engineers are going deaf is the problem.
BlindPanzer
Iced Guardian was taken:)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Royal Hunt brought their own sound guy which is why it took them a couple of songs to sound "right".
Prog_Muse
Look Who The Cat Dragged In
<hijack> Okay, so that made me blow coffee out my nose. How ridiculous is that.
</hijack>
No Username
Member
10 marks my 2nd prog power, with 8 being my first. I've done some studio sound engineering in the past, but never live sound.
I noticed that there was a serious problem that other fans agreed with me on when I talked to them after the sets--- the sound was really bad. Overly loud (even for the fans of loudness) and a total lack of dynamics because of the volume.
The musicians would always fight to have their monitors turned up, which would in turn cause others to have their monitors turned up and then we'd get serious feedback through whenever there was a minor lull in the music.
It really couldn't be that every singer was having a bad day. Many seemed to strain just to hear themselves, and some, notably, in my case, Circus Maximus, seemed to give up altogether and just sing and hope for the best.
The only band that seemed to redo levels and the sound was fate's warning, but by that time, the event is almost over.
I've never ever worn earplugs before, but I purchased a set reluctantly, and wouldn't you know-- I could hear music again!
I never got a chance to speak with Glen, but I wish I had. A lot of loyal fans were reluctant in being the voice of discontent because they are so thankful for the experience, but with the way I see it... if it makes the event better for everyone, we've got constructive criticism that makes everyone have a better time for 11.
Anyone else feel how I do?
For those wondering who I was at the show-- I'm the guy that doesn't look like he fits in who wears the bright golf shirts and talks to people all of the time
...said the person with FOUR posts...
The search feature is your friend, this question has been asked and answered a dozen times. If you have never seen a concert with 15 bands all using the same sound setup you would not know that it is damn near impossible for everything to go right every time. This was my 7th ProgPower, and it might have been one of the better ones for sound.
In fact, I look forward to the kinks and laugh--"Here we go again!" But it is all in good fun.
Sound issues are a small price to pay to see all of these kickass bands in one weekend.
I have been to 8 ProgPowers and it always seems there are hit and misses as far as sound goes. I do expect that, however, in a festival setting such as this. Some bands have been way too loud in the past (Devin Townsend, Symphony X last time) to be enjoyed. Being very NON-technical I don't understand why either the sound engineer or someone else able to adjust volume cannot just turn up singers or guitarists etc. when they are more than obviously low or clear up a muddy sound. If it is a personal request by the band/band member then I understand...otherwise I do not. I always sit in the seats where it seems the sound should be perfect. I'm not really complaining, just sometimes miss my favorite vocalists who end up lost in the mix and nobody seems to do anything about it. With that said, I truly realize it is a very labor intensive and on the fly job the crew has to deal with. Given that they do an amazing job and I appreciate all they do to provide the common attendee a great experience musically. Just my thoughts.
Bryan316
METAL... nuff said!
By the way. I also own the Etymotic Research Baby Blues, and have been using them for about two years. Every gig, every concert, every band practice, every RotoZip or Sawzall or router or angle grinder or belt sander. I already dislike the fact I damaged my hearing at work with 8" roofing screws smashing into sheet metal hoppers, and standing next to that racket for a 1/2 hour straight.
I bought these earplugs for the rest of the guys in Mellotron. They've thanked me many times now, after the gig when their heads weren't vibrating in he morning. But they really liked how these things don't make the music sound muddy and boomy. It's just a gentle reduction in loudness, that's very musical.
Recommended. Get em, folks. Also great for vocals, cuz it helps me hear my head's own resonation, without plugging up the monitors and rendering them useless.
I bought these earplugs for the rest of the guys in Mellotron. They've thanked me many times now, after the gig when their heads weren't vibrating in he morning. But they really liked how these things don't make the music sound muddy and boomy. It's just a gentle reduction in loudness, that's very musical.
Recommended. Get em, folks. Also great for vocals, cuz it helps me hear my head's own resonation, without plugging up the monitors and rendering them useless.
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